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yolkboy

Sapphires = Secrets

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What if we looked at this backwards? If you are suggesting that Sapphires appear in the text around characters with secrets, and while the secret is being either discussed, thought about, referenced, or suggested, what about characters with big secrets that don't have sapphires around their passages?

For example, I searched for sapphires around Jaqen H'ghar, a man with a huge secret, and he has no sapphires. Why? Neither does Pate, or the alchemist. In my mind, wouldn't this be the perfect example for the sapphire code to appear?

Exactly. What about Alleras/Sarella, the self named sphynx! Isn't that one hell of a secret? Why no sapphires there?

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Something you will need to address: Why are sapphires not seen during other characters with big secrets? What is the trigger that makes sapphires appear for these secrets, but not others? Notice I'm not saying you are wrong, but if you are going to declare yourself correct, you need to have rock solid proof.

Nobody has ever claimed secrets mean a sapphire has to there. But when there's a sapphire, there is always a secret relevant to the scene. It's a sapphire code, not a secret code. sapphire=secret. Secret does not necessarily=sapphire, nor was that the claim anywhere in the OP. I don't understand the problem at all.. If the proof isn't solid enough for you, give an example of what does't fit the hypothesis written the first line of the OP:

"With every single mention of sapphires in the books, there is a hidden secret, relevant to that scene "

For example, I searched for sapphires around Jaqen H'ghar, a man with a huge secret, and he has no sapphires. Why? Neither does Pate, or the alchemist. In my mind, wouldn't this be the perfect example for the sapphire code to appear?

See above.

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What if we looked at this backwards? If you are suggesting that Sapphires appear in the text around characters with secrets, and while the secret is being either discussed, thought about, referenced, or suggested, what about characters with big secrets that don't have sapphires around their passages?

For example, I searched for sapphires around Jaqen H'ghar, a man with a huge secret, and he has no sapphires. Why? Neither does Pate, or the alchemist. In my mind, wouldn't this be the perfect example for the sapphire code to appear?

I think the explanation for this is that sapphires are not the only symbol for secret or deception in the series. There is Arbor gold, for example. There may well be others. It's just that GRRM can't use things like sapphires or Arbor gold in every scene in which there is some sort of secret.

It maybe even be that sapphires are just a fraction of something larger concerning the color blue. I mentioned up thread that Griff and YG dye their hair blue to hide their identities. And then you have blue roses, which are intertwined with the mystery of Jon Snow's identity.

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Here is the thing, you are making a statement: Here is a sapphire, and here is the secret it represents. The problem is, that it is VERY easy to identify correlations after the fact. No one is accusing you of being deceptive, the statements you have made are specific, but that doesn't make them correct.

Give an example of what's incorrect. I don't understand what you identify as being the 'problem'. I read the text and made correlations. Where's the problem with that exactly? If it's so easy to do this, please show me some of your correlations.

It's the same issue with Nostradamus' quatrains. Reading meaning into them is so easy that you can imply all sorts of meanings or implied accuracy even though there is literally nothing to the predictions.

WTF has Nostradamous got to do with patterns in textual symbolism? 26 sapphires, 26 secrets pertinent to the scene they're in. You should give an example of any that you thought broke the code presented in the first line of the OP.

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something larger concerning the color blue. I mentioned up thread that Griff and YG dye their hair blue to hide their identities. And then you have blue roses, which are intertwined with the mystery of Jon Snow's identity.

So, it's synonymous with looking into a really blue reflecting pool and seeing a distorted image in it as the water ripples. Or looking into someone's topaz eyes and they're just so damned blue that you get lost in them, opening the way to you believing all sorts of lies. And ice causes snow blindness, with blue as the cold color of icy multi-faceted crystaline reality that looks one way and then shows you something else the next minute. Also, ice freezes and so do people's opinions get frozen, sometimes in error. All that shiz.

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So, it's synonymous with looking into a really blue reflecting pool and seeing a distorted image in it as the water ripples. Or looking into someone's topaz eyes and they're just so damned blue that you get lost in them, opening the way to you believing all sorts of lies. And ice causes snow blindness, with blue as the cold color of icy multi-faceted crystaline reality that looks one way and then shows you something else the next minute. Also, ice freezes and so do people's opinions get frozen, sometimes in error. All that shiz.

What?

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J Stargaryen .... I'm not sure if you'll actually want to get into the hair-dying thing.. because ,if you do , you shouldn't leave out Daario ,whose beard is dyed blue , it's 3 pronged ( maybe reminiscent of the Triarchs, maybe of Braavos' IB, FM, Sealord ) and the tips of his moustache are gilded ( gold= royalty, or high birth?)..Later he dyes it purple ( ahem ) and then back to blue and gold - for Dany ..as it was when they first met.

Personally , I have no particular aversion to Daario as a character , and think it would be just the sort of irony GRRM is fond of , if he should turn out to be not nearly as low born as Dany thinks he is...

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J Stargaryen .... I'm not sure if you'll actually want to get into the hair-dying thing.. because ,if you do , you shouldn't leave out Daario ,whose beard is dyed blue , it's 3 pronged ( maybe reminiscent of the Triarchs, maybe of Braavos' IB, FM, Sealord ) and the tips of his moustache are gilded ( gold= royalty, or high birth?)..Later he dyes it purple ( ahem ) and then back to blue and gold - for Dany ..as it was when they first met.

Personally , I have no particular aversion to Daario as a character , and think it would be just the sort of irony GRRM is fond of , if he should turn out to be not nearly as low born as Dany thinks he is...

Well, is it possible that Daario is keeping a secret from Dany? Whether there is anything to the idea of secrets/deception/mystery, etc. being tied to the color blue or not, it doesn't really affect the OP or its supporting analyses. It's just something that might be worth looking into.

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Give an example of what's incorrect. I don't understand what you identify as being the 'problem'. I read the text and made correlations. Where's the problem with that exactly? If it's so easy to do this, please show me some of your correlations.

WTF has Nostradamous got to do with patterns in textual symbolism? 26 sapphires, 26 secrets pertinent to the scene they're in. You failed to give an example of any that you thought broke the code presented in the first line of the OP. You're wasting my time by dismissing the idea without having the balls to give an example of how the premise in the OP was untrue. We might have got some wrong, so please do feedback with where you clearly think we went astray.

I would appreciate it if you would remain civil in the discussion.

What I stated is this:

You have identified 26 instances in which sapphires are mentioned, and you have identified a secret for each of those instances. What I am stating is that simply being able to identify a secret associated with a scene in which sapphires are mentioned is not sufficient proof to conclusively state that if sapphires are mentioned then then there is an immediate secret. The sheer volume of potential secrets means that it could simply be coincidence that there is a secret.

I mentioned Nostradamus because his quatrains are vague enough that it is trivially easy to say that 'When he said this, it can be interpreted to mean this, thus proving the prediction.'

I would love to provide you with examples, but I only have the audioversions of the books, therefore searching them is kind of difficult for me. However, I will use your examples to demonstrate that just because you can find 'a secret' associated with the mention of sapphires, the vagueness of interpretations means that it could just be a coincidence.

ROBIN:

"The little lord wore sky-blue velvet, a chain of gold and sapphires, and a white bearskin cloak. His squires each held an end, to keep the cloak from dragging on the floor."

You say the secret relates to his health. Could not the secret be that the little lord wasn't an Arryn, but a Baelish?

GERION:

“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."

Here you state the secret was in the secrets pertaining to the Robert-Cersei wedding. However I think the more telling secret is that it isn't just anybody that gave Robert a sapphire hilted dagger, it was Gerion. Remember what this scene was about, it was about Tywin Lannister trying to claim a Valyrian steel sword for house Lannister. Gerion went missing trying to find Brightroar, the actual Valyrian steel sword of house Lannister. Might not the bigger secret be related to Gerion's disappearance? The whole scene is about Valyrian steel blades, not Robert's wedding.

What I'm trying to say isn't that you are wrong, but that there are so many secrets flying around, that simply stating that you have 'a secret' that has something to do with a character in a scene doesn't mean that the appearance of sapphires means that a secret must be present.

Since EVERY character has at least one secret, then literally every mention of sapphires must occur in the presence of a character with a secret! It's like saying that every time a trencher is mentioned, there is some character present who is involved in a plot.

It's not enough to just say that you have examples, we need to know WHY those examples and not others. I think that the case that sapphires means a a secret has merit, but then again, so does my trenchers = someone involved in a plot theory if all you care about is correlation.

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Again, I think I need to buffer my statement with:

I THINK YOU ARE CORRECT in your theory. But if you are going to claim it as fact, then you need to have more proof than just coincidence.

(and on that note, I do believe that the Gerion gifted dagger has more to do with the secret about Brightroar's whereabouts than Robert's marriage secrets)

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That's fair.

(Blue as the patron color of shiftiness, basically).

Okay, I get it now. It could be. Sorry about the confusion.

The problem with the idea is that there are probably thousands of instances of something being "blue" in the series. On the one hand, blue is one of the colors of House Frey – see I'm right!!! On the other, it's also one of the colors of House Tully – lemme get back to you with that explanation. :P

I don't really know, tbh. Maybe it has something to do with blue being out of place. It's just that it's hard to deny the instances of blue being used to cover up ones identity in the instances I mentioned; i.e., blue roses and blue hair dye.

The Others have bright blue eyes. Is this possibly a hint at a sort of secret identity/origin? I don't know. We might be getting into This way lies madness territory.

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It's interesting, but I also think that nearly every character in this story is keeping some sort of secret at all times.... so.... hmm.

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J Stargaryen .... I'm not sure if you'll actually want to get into the hair-dying thing.. because ,if you do , you shouldn't leave out Daario ,whose beard is dyed blue , it's 3 pronged ( maybe reminiscent of the Triarchs, maybe of Braavos' IB, FM, Sealord ) and the tips of his moustache are gilded ( gold= royalty, or high birth?)..Later he dyes his beard purple ( ahem ) and then back to blue and gold - for Dany ..as it was when they first met.

Personally , I have no particular aversion to Daario as a character ( though many do ), and I think it would be just the sort of irony GRRM is fond of , if Daario should turn out to be not nearly as low born as Dany thinks he is...

I thought that anyway without this particular sapphire/blue symbolism... but it fits.... and oddly our own symbolic meaning of blue fits as well..(I'm just cutting and pasting the following from the thread I started on Daario..)

“Once I am wed it will be high treason to desire me.” Dany pulled the coverlet up over her breasts.

“Then I must be a traitor.” He slipped a blue silk tunic over his head and straightened the prongs of his beard with his fingers. He had dyed it afresh for her, taking it from purple back to blue, as it had been when first she met him .“I smell of you,” he said, sniffing at his fingers and grinning.

So.. throughout their banter Dany calls him , fickle , treacherous , and warns of future high treason. In the context of their conversation , his "Then I must be a traitor." means he'll continue to desire her, regardless .. but if he serves some outside cause , then he may also be approaching a point where he'll have to choose, thereby becoming a traitor to either that cause or Dany.( Like Jorah ) .

But back to colour.. If he took his beard back to blue from purple for Dany .. for whom or what had he coloured it purple while he was away ? Or was that just a whim ? ... As he speaks, he's putting on a blue silk tunic... I'm unaware of any particular story-related political connotations for blue , but blue is the colour of fidelity , sincerity, honesty and wisdom to us..."True Blue".

And hidden in Daario's sexual, " I smell of you ." , is George telling us that Daario passes the sniff test ?

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And hidden in Daario's sexual, " I smell of you ." , is George telling us that Daario passes the sniff test ?

God... that line...

:ack:

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I would appreciate it if you would remain civil in the discussion.

I'm perfectly civil dude. It's just I had to explain the same thing several times. And also Nostradamous was a little WTF. ;)

You say the secret relates to his health. Could not the secret be that the little lord wasn't an Arryn, but a Baelish?

Here you state the secret was in the secrets pertaining to the Robert-Cersei wedding. However I think the more telling secret is that it isn't just anybody that gave Robert a sapphire hilted dagger, it was Gerion. Remember what this scene was about, it was about Tywin Lannister trying to claim a Valyrian steel sword for house Lannister. Gerion went missing trying to find Brightroar, the actual Valyrian steel sword of house Lannister. Might not the bigger secret be related to Gerion's disappearance? The whole scene is about Valyrian steel blades, not Robert's wedding.

RE Baelish. Lady Gwyn suggested that mention of plural sapphires could denote multiple secrets, so it's possible. Your interpretation is valid, but not quite as pertinent to the scene as Robin dressing up and 'hiding' his ailment.

RE Gerion is a real tricky one. We let the community get that one, there's definitely a few things that work, and your idea is one of them.

Thanks for the ideas! By know means do we profess that we got every single catch right - allow a little margin for error given the size of the task.

Since EVERY character has at least one secret, then literally every mention of sapphires must occur in the presence of a character with a secret! It's like saying that every time a trencher is mentioned, there is some character present who is involved in a plot.

It's not enough to just say that you have examples, we need to know WHY those examples and not others. I think that the case that sapphires means a a secret has merit, but then again, so does my trenchers = someone involved in a plot theory if all you care about is correlation.

Try and find anything else that's linked to something 26 times - every occurance, then we'll talk.

Again, I think I need to buffer my statement with:

I THINK YOU ARE CORRECT in your theory. But if you are going to claim it as fact, then you need to have more proof than just coincidence.

(and on that note, I do believe that the Gerion gifted dagger has more to do with the secret about Brightroar's whereabouts than Robert's marriage secrets)

Well thanks, and you made some good input! ;)

I don't know how much more proof you want. Every sapphire has been covered by the OP. 26/26 is a coincidence? (Even if a couple might turn out wrong?)

I agree Gerion one could be a few things, and your idea is perfectly valid.

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It's interesting, but I also think that nearly every character in this story is keeping some sort of secret at all times.... so.... hmm.

Not relevant to every scene. That's the key thing here - every time a sapphire's there the secret is relevant to what's going on page at the time. I dunno how many more times I can type this.

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Well thanks, and you made some good input! ;)

I don't know how much more proof you want. Every sapphire has been covered by the OP. 26/26 is a coincidence? (Even if a couple might turn out wrong?)

I agree Gerion one could be a few things, and your idea is perfectly valid.

I'm not arguing that your hypothesis is incorrect, I'm arguing that your understanding of the situation is incomplete. You are correct in that you are able to show a 100% correlation between sapphires and secrets. However, just listing off the instances of occurrence is not sufficient because there are other explanations which equally satisfy your hypothesis.

Consider my trencher example. Every single time a trencher is mentioned in the story, there is someone present who is involved in a plot. That is a 100% fact. Does that mean that trenchers are symbolic of plots in the story? No. It simply means that there are so many people involved in plots that it is a coincidence that anytime a trencher is mentioned, someone happens to be there.

The same thing is true for the sapphires. Every single character in this series has a secret. If every single character has a secret, then there is no possible way that you could ever have a character in the presence of sapphires and not be in the presence of a secret.

So... how do you IMPROVE your hypothesis? You dig deeper and discover what the actual connections are. What makes a secret 'sapphire-worthy'? What type of secret must a character be concealing in order for GRRM to go out of his way and introduce the sapphire-secret symbolism? THAT is what you need to discover next. It's great that you discovered 26 instances of sapphire-secret correlation, now it is important to understand WHY a sapphire gets mentioned for a particular secret, or WHY a sapphire ISN'T mentioned for a particular secret.

That's the difference between my trencher example, and the sapphire example. In my trencher example, there is no why. It is pure coincidence. The sapphire hypothesis, for it to go beyond you simply listing out sapphires and declaring that 'yup there be secrets', to being a tried and true theory, you must be able to predict when they will be mentioned.

For example, if you were to analyze the existing mentions of sapphires and discover that only secrets which involve a hidden aspect of a person were the ones to trigger sapphires, THEN you would have a much stronger hypothesis because it would be falsifiable.

Take a look at this article to see where I'm coming from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

" falsificationism, an unfalsifiable and thus unscientific theory is not necessarily intrinsically false or inappropriate, since metaphysical theories might be true or contain truth, but one cannot know for sure."

So what I'm saying is that your theory might be true, but in the way you are stating it, without any testability, we have no way to know it to be true.

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Not relevant to every scene. That's the key thing here - every time a sapphire's there the secret is relevant to what's going on page at the time. I dunno how many more times I can type this.

Consider my Gerion example. You were able to show that there were secrets relating to Robert and Cersei because the dagger was wedding gift. I was able to show that the secret might have been related to the missing Valyrian Steel blades and Gerion himself given that the scene was one which revolved around Tywins efforts to claim a Valyrian blade for House Lannister.

Someone else might mention the fact that the secret might pertain to the fact that it was one of those 'hundred of gifted knives' mentioned in the same sentence, one of which happened to be Valyrian steel, that was used in the assassination attempt on Bran. (Again we were talking about valyrian steel and the gift daggers, and gift swords to Joffery so the assassination dagger Joffery stole is pretty relevant)

It's very easy to twist things to fit the logic, that's why I'm trying to make the point that you need to refine 'secrets=sapphires' to something more specific. Specifically, what kind of secret=sapphires.

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God... that line...

:ack:

:D I know ! ... but don't you think it would be very GRRM-like to find a way to imply that he is her man ( politically , as well ) in such a way that makes you want to hurriedly read past it ?

Sorry ..Don't mean to take this OT.

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