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yolkboy

Sapphires = Secrets

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By the way and apropos nothing, I went and tried to find what sapphires are classically meant to symbolize irl. There is little the different websites can agree on, but wikipedia mentions that they are the traditional gift for a 65th wedding anniversary. Pretty exactly 65 years before our novels start, Walder Frey married his first wife. Coincidence?

(Yes.) Definitely never not no.

I think you're pretty exactly correct there.

And the sapphire irl mysticism that I looked at regarded preserving chastity - which obviously made me think of Brienne, her eyes, her 'weight in sapphires', and her home on the Sapphire Isles. Thappphirrres.

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"As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gem-stones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinkinghorns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls ... all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt"

One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales

This is from the Bowen Marsh one, last on the list. Bowen is angry at Jon for various things, as wildings come through giving the possessions. I was thinking of the silver scales as some kind of armour shirt or something. I just realise the scales are representing judgement. Bowen is judging Jon, and effectively sentences him to death for perceived crimes against the Night's Watch. The broken sword I've already said seems to be the NW sword in the darkness/Broken vows. Whether anything else on that list is code I dunno. :dunno:

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ILLYRIO:

"His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes"

This is Illyrio, during his clandestine conversation with Varys. The secret here is fAegon, who they are both planning to see onto the throne. Notice the ruby (associated with House Targaryen) is next to the sapphire - a nod to the fake Targaryen deceit.

"Tiger's eyes" as well.

Illyrio is connected to Volantis (perhaps their "eyes"?) where a potential slave revolt under the Tigers regime is taking place.

"Speculation is rife that two tigers might be elected Triarch, something that has not happened for three hundred years"

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Triarch_of_Volantis#A_Dance_of_Dragons

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I seriously doubt George Martin was sitting there writing these scenes thinking: "I will use sapphires as a metaphor for secrets". there are a lot of references to emeralds too, and many other precious gem stones. I think you guys are digging way too deep here.


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I seriously doubt George Martin was sitting there writing these scenes thinking: "I will use sapphires as a metaphor for secrets". there are a lot of references to emeralds too, and many other precious gem stones. I think you guys are digging way too deep here.

He seems to have done these same thing with Arbor Gold. Of course, Grrm would never think of buring patterns, puzzles and secret symbolism, it's just a huge coincidence. He's obviously a superficial surface writer as we've seen with forehadowing, the king in hiding and numerous other hidden levels to the text. Maybe you're not deep enough?

And yes there are mentions of other gemstones like emeralds, but they don't have a pattern like this, so you're missing the point. Please look at emeralds and discern a x=y pattern and prove me wrong.

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He seems to have done these same thing with Arbor Gold. Of course, Grrm would never think of buring patterns, puzzles and secret symbolism, it's just a huge coincidence. He's obviously a superficial surface writer as we've seen with forehadowing, the king in hiding and numerous other hidden levels to the text. Maybe you're not deep enough?

And yes there are mentions of other gemstones like emeralds, but they don't have a pattern like this, so you're missing the point. Please look at emeralds and discern a x=y pattern and prove me wrong.

Why bother responding? ' Pamparius trollius' is ancient Roman for bored.

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I seriously doubt George Martin was sitting there writing these scenes thinking: "I will use sapphires as a metaphor for secrets". there are a lot of references to emeralds too, and many other precious gem stones. I think you guys are digging way too deep here.

I think you may have missed the point slightly!

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I seriously doubt George Martin was sitting there writing these scenes thinking: "I will use sapphires as a metaphor for secrets". there are a lot of references to emeralds too, and many other precious gem stones. I think you guys are digging way too deep here.

Well it has been theorized that rubies relate well to fire and blood and Targaryens, and Moonstones to glamor and deceit. The book is heavy with symbolism, and it is intentional on the author's part.

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I think Tobho is hiding more than just Gendry, and that's why the sapphire is "as big as a pigeon's egg". Euron's sapphires are numerous and very large, and I think that indicates that he's hiding a LOT, not just his role in Balon's death. I think the reason he crews his ship with mutes is to prevent anyone but himself from telling tales of his exploits, to allow himself to lie with impunity.


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25 sapphires. 25 secrets relevant to their particular scene.

I just thought it might be interesting to check the newly released The Princess and The Queen whether the series holds. Of course, companion novels don't have to follow that pattern, but in particular if it's an association that GRRM holds dear in general, it might be expected.

Spoilers for tPatQ ahead:

There is exactly one instance where sapphires are mentioned: When the king has died, which is being covered up, Prince Aemond puts a sapphire in his empty eye socket, to fly to Storm's End in secret, where he's going to meet Lucerys Targaryen who doesn't suspect he'll be there and thus gets himself killed.

I'd count that one as a resounding yes.

Again, it was a fair test in the sense that many parts of the books involve straightforward fighting, or only incorrect suspicions, or straightforward "I hate you and you hate me" maneuvers - but the sapphires weren't mentioned in any of these parts, but in a context where secrecy was especially in the foreground (possibly at its height during the whole novel actually).

As it was a test on new material that came out after this theory, it's especially significant.

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I know this isn't exactly in line w/ the theory, seeing as the sapphire and AR aren't in the same scene, but it was the the first connection i came up.


It could also foreshadow the secret that Alys Rivers isn't really a seer.


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It could also foreshadow the secret that Alys Rivers isn't really a seer.

Sorry about bumping after so long, but you got me curious.

What makes you think she is not? I like the theory that she is the ancestor/mother to the Ghost of High Hill.

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LORAS:

"The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats"

This is another regarding that Loras' deception - but this time there's an added R+L=J catch. "Blue of the flowers" being linked to sapphires seems like a nod to the Jon Snow secret. Unsurprisingly, Ned is mentioned just before the flowers - he's keeping the secret.

This is the only citation, I find interesting. The others are far fetched imo

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Sorry about bumping after so long, but you got me curious.

What makes you think she is not? I like the theory that she is the ancestor/mother to the Ghost of High Hill.

It's been mentioned in the main P&Q thread as well as a sub-thread about her.

The idea has to do w/ the fact that she's the only witness to have recounted Aemond's and Daemon's dialogue and is thus the only source for the claim. And we don't really have any reason to believer her other than her word. Her only feat is to have located someone who wasn't hiding and who spread the word of his location, which doesn't really demonstrate she has significant powers sight. And by leading Aemond to Harrenhal her "visions" resulted in the death of her lover and presumably the father of her unborn child, which also puts her powers into question. However, she still could have been a seer it's just some speculation.

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Good god Doctor what are you doing? Codes? Codes? (I am not using it three times), don't use the word Code! Tis an evil word on this forum, do you wish to draw down the wrath and fire of the board upon Yolky. What did he do to you? The word drives members mad Doctor, mad I tell you.



Nothing to see here fellow board members, the good Doctor meant literary device. It's an allusion, sapphires allude to something else. That's all, no codes, Yolky does not need to be suspended or banned. He is just discussing literary devices applied by the author. No Code thread here, there are no codes, codes are evil and those using the word will be burned.



Now that reminds me, Yolk what happened to the Ruby Co... ummmmm Ruby literary device? Trust me do not use the word Code, I know this better than anyone. Also don't over use the word literary device as according to some Martin does not use those either, but what do I know.



PS. Mods don't ban me for the use of Codes or Literary device as I was only warning another member as the reaction these words or devices.


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The sapphire secrets are always relevant to that particular scene. Lot's of characters have secrets, but when a sapphire shows up, their secret is relevant to what's going on at the point in time.

eg. Sansa dreams of Loras in Sapphires when she's thinking about marrying him. The secret that he's gay is pertinent to that moment.

ETA I Hope it's clear this is EVERY Sapphire mention covered in the series.

But see, here's the thing, are there other places in the text where you might expect to find a sapphire based on your theory? If so why didn't The George stck a sapphire in there? For example is Lem ever described with sapphires?

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But see, here's the thing, are there other places in the text where you might expect to find a sapphire based on your theory? If so why didn't The George stck a sapphire in there? For example is Lem ever described with sapphires?

I think your basic question was addressed earlier in the thread, but as for Lem... Don't you think it would be horribly jarring for him to have a sapphire? That is to say, not every secret must have a sapphire, but every sapphire has its secret ;)

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