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yolkboy

Sapphires = Secrets

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Bingo. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

Hellou and thank you kindly!! :)

I think you're pretty exactly correct there.

And the sapphire irl mysticism that I looked at regarded preserving chastity - which obviously made me think of Brienne, her eyes, her 'weight in sapphires', and her home on the Sapphire Isles. Thappphirrres.

By the way and apropos nothing, I went and tried to find what sapphires are classically meant to symbolize irl. There is little the different websites can agree on, but wikipedia mentions that they are the traditional gift for a 65th wedding anniversary. Pretty exactly 65 years before our novels start, Walder Frey married his first wife. Coincidence?

(Yes.)

Another little thing, which both pertains to general secrets and not being one's true self: sapphires can generally mean hope, faithfulness, and a desire to fulfill one's dreams. If it's secrets/falseselves, what better gem to invoke than one that would try to protect said secret/falseself from prying eyes? And with the blue x J Snow connection, he most of all desires to be a worthwhile "full" person, all while knowing nothing (sapphires also being associated with promoting wisdom and mental clarity). hm hm hm

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Hellou and thank you kindly!! :)

Another little thing, which both pertains to general secrets and not being one's true self: sapphires can generally mean hope, faithfulness, and a desire to fulfill one's dreams. If it's secrets/falseselves, what better gem to invoke than one that would try to protect said secret/falseself from prying eyes? And with the blue x J Snow connection, he most of all desires to be a worthwhile "full" person, all while knowing nothing (sapphires also being associated with promoting wisdom and mental clarity). hm hm hm

Here's a couple topics of mine that you might find interesting: Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone & Emeralds.

Here's another one of Yolkboy's: The Ruby Pattern.

And here is one along those same lines: The Rhaegar Ruby Theory.

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made with J. Stargaryen

With every single mention of sapphires in the books, there is a hidden secret, relevant to that scene. This thread looks at all of them.

Sapphires = Secret

A Game of Thrones

LORAS:

"His sapphires winked in the sun as he raised his visor, smiling. The commons went mad for him."

Loras presents himself as the paragon of chivary, and the secret here is that he is engaging in gamesmanship by riding a "mare on heat" in the jousting lists, to distract his opponents horses.

Example of relevance: Loras is pretending to be honourable in the scene. The sapphire secret is that he's cheating. So the secret is relevant to this particular scene - which is the pattern that makes this so interesting. It's not random secrets.

LORAS:

"The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats"

This is another regarding that Loras' deception - but this time there's an added R+L=J catch. "Blue of the flowers" being linked to sapphires seems like a nod to the Jon Snow secret. Unsurprisingly, Ned is mentioned just before the flowers - he's keeping the secret.

You are double counting this one, based on the thin pretext that Ned and flowers are mentioned. The scene is not relevant to R+L=J.

LYSA:

"Lysa, freshly scrubbed and garbed in cream velvet with a rope of sapphires and moonstones around her milk-white neck, was holding court on the terrace overlooking the scene of the combat, surrounded by her knights, retainers, and lords high and low. Most of them still hoped to wed her, bed her, and rule the Vale of Arryn by her side."

Lysa wears a sapphire necklace when she's courting potential suitors/husbands - the secret being that she murdered her previous husband.

I'm not sure that that secret is all that directly relevant to the scene, but whatever..

JOFFREY:

"She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate. He wore a deep blue doublet studded with a double row of golden lion’s heads, and around his brow a slim coronet made of gold and sapphires. His hair was as bright as the metal."

Joffrey is being deceptively nice to Sansa in this scene, as she is forming an opinion of him based on his 'act'. He's hiding his true self. His 'monster' is his secret.

Joffrey wearing sapphires also points at his unknowing secret concerning his true parentage. Notice the word 'sapphire' is used between the words 'gold' and 'his hair'. His golden Lannister hair was the clue that led to Ned finally realising who's child he was.

TOBHO:

“I am Tobho Mott, my lord, please, please, put yourself at ease.” He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread, Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon’s egg."

This is Tobho Mott wearing a sapphire when Ned is interrogating him about Gendry. Tobho's secret here is that Gendry is Robert's bastard.

ILLYRIO:

"His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes"

This is Illyrio, during his clandestine conversation with Varys. Their partnesrship is the secret. Notice the ruby (associated with House Targaryen) is next to the sapphire - a nod to the fake Targaryen deceit of fAegon.

JAFFERS:

"Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires."

Jaffers secret here is that he is already a wight - he's been 'activated', as the blue eyes tell, and is playing dead. This might be why he can function on the Castle Black side of the Wall - he was already wighted before being taken in.

SYMEON:

“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim."

The previous catch regarding Jaffers' eyes seems like a hint that Symeon's secret might concern an 'Others connection'. They have the same eyes, blue as sapphires, perhaps Symeons weren't as literal as the singers told it.

Total speculation.

Clash of Kings

WYLIS:

"No one ransomed the northmen, though. One fat lordling haunted the kitchens, Hot Pie told her, always looking for a morsel. His mustache was so bushy that it covered his mouth, and the clasp that held his cloak was a silver-and-sapphire trident. He belonged to Lord Tywin"

This is a play on words with the word 'morsel'. Like his father, Wylis uses his appetite and girth to his advantage, as a cover for spying etc. He is frequenting the kitchens, without suspicion, and listens to gossip - secretly spying. Tywin probably does have Wylis under control - apart from when he goes to visit the kitchens, 'looking for a morsel'. Morsel can mean gossip as well as food, 'morsel of gossip' is a phrase.

Total speculation.

DAGMER:

“This Andrik may be a great fighter, but men do not fear him as they fear you"

“Aye, that’s so,” Dagmer said. The fingers curled around the drinking horn were heavy with rings, gold and silver and bronze, set with chunks of sapphire and garnet and dragonglass. He had paid the iron price for every one, Theon knew."

Theon reconnects with his childhood idol, Dagmer. He seems to be slightly blinded by his idealisation of his aging hero. Dagmer previously admits Andrik has a better reputation for a fighter than himself. When Theon insists that Dagmer is more feared, Cleftjaw is happy to agree, secretly knowing that perhaps Andrik is now.

Total speculation.

A Storm of Swords

LORAS:

"Wed to Ser Loras, oh... Sansa’s breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the comer of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand"

As Sansa is daydreaming of marrying Loras, she is blissfully unaware of his secret - his homosexuality.

JAIME:

“Is every word you say a lie, Kingslayer? Tarth is called the Sapphire Isle for the blue of its waters.”

All the mentions of the Sapphire Isle and it's supposed harvest, in relation to Vargo and co., can be attributed to Jaime's secret - that the Isle wasn't actually named for it's richness in sapphires. This deceit spreads across several characters and scenes.

RENLY:

That was what he’d done, when the Starks had died before him, Lord Rickard cooking in his armor while his son Brandon strangled himself trying to save him. “Think of Renly, if you loved him. Think of Tarth, mountains and seas, pools, waterfalls, whatever you have on your Sapphire Isle, think...”

The mentions of Renly and the Sapphire Isle highlight the secret of his sexuality, that is being kept by Jaime here.

Thin. The sapphire association is with Tarth, not Renly.

ROOSE:

"It would be unconscionable of me to deprive Lord Vargo of both his prizes.” The Lord of the Dreadfort reached out to pick another prune. “Were I you, my lady, I should worry less about Starks and rather more about sapphires."

Roose might have already secretly been planning the Red Wedding as he tells Brienne not to worry about the Starks.

JAIME:

“Take the bloody sword and go, before I change my mind. There’s a bay mare in the stables, as homely as you are but somewhat better trained. Chase after Steelshanks, search for Sansa, or ride home to your isle of sapphires, it’s naught to me. I don’t want to look at you anymore.”

This secret could be Jaime hiding his true feelings about Brienne. We later learn he has a fondness for her, and here he's claiming the opposite.

LYSA:

"Lady Lysa had dressed in a gown of cream-colored velvet and a necklace of sapphires and moonstones. Her auburn hair had been done up in a thick braid, and fell across one shoulder. She sat in the high seat watching her niece approach, her face red and puffy beneath the paint and powder. On the wall behind her hung a huge banner, the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn in cream and blue."

The second time Lysa is wearing a sapphire necklace (first is in aGoT), she is talking to Sansa about Littlefinger, stood infront of a banner of Jon Arryn. The secret this time is not only that she killed him, but the topic of conversation - Littlefinger, helped her.

GERION:

“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."

It's a sapphire wedding gift from a Lannister. Seems like Gerion knew about Jaime and Cersei. (credit Bright Blue Eyes)

Total speculation.

MANCE:

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist."

This is the only 'negative sapphire' - the no sapphires underlines Mance is sincere here. (credit Butterbumps!)

A Feast For Crows

EURON:

“The Silence returned with holds full of treasure. Plate and pearls, emeralds and rubies, sapphires big as eggs, bags of coin so heavy that no man can lift them... the Crow’s Eye has been buying friends at every hand."

Euron's secret at the King's moot is that he hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon, which triggered the moot.

Not really that relevant to the scene.

ARYA:

"There must be treasure chambers too, Arya decided. She pictured stacks of golden plates, bags of silver coins, sapphires blue as the sea. One day the kindly man came on her unexpectedly and asked what she was doing. She told him that she had gotten lost."

“You lie. Worse, you lie poorly. Who are you?”

“No one.”

“Another lie.” He sighed.

Here, Arya tries to deceive the Kindly Man about being 'no one'. Arya is secretly 'holding onto herself' by hiding Needle.

ROBIN:

"The little lord wore sky-blue velvet, a chain of gold and sapphires, and a white bearskin cloak. His squires each held an end, to keep the cloak from dragging on the floor."

Earlier in the chapter Sansa instructs the maester to give Robert sweet sleep rather than giving him milk of the poppy and tying him to mule during the descent. Several times she either mentions or thinks how important it is that he appear to be a strong lord. No one can know how sickly he really is. Once he's dressed and ready to go he shows up wearing sapphires. So the secret is concealing his ill health, and this is the only time he wears the necklace.

A Dance With Dragons

ILLYRIO:

"Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I’d need a cleaver to claim them."

This is Tyrion with Illryio. At this point, Illyrio's plans for fAegon and the Golden company are under way, and he keeps the secret from Tyrion. Notice the rings next to the sapphire, GREEN BLACK GREEN BLACK GREEN (dance of the dragons).

ILLYRIO:

"He taught them to read as well. We left the gold and gems for common thieves. Instead our mice stole letters, ledgers, charts ... later, they would read them and leave them where they lay. Secrets are worth more than silver or sapphires, Varys claimed."

The secret with Illyrio seems to be not just about fAegon, but also underlining how long the Illyrio-Varys Blackfyre partnership has been going on. There's probably more to his story than he's conveying. Also, secrets (fAegon) are worth more than silver (Dany) to Illyrio.

BOWEN MARSH:

"As they passed, ... all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt"

Bowen Marsh is collecting a sapphire hilted sword from wildlings entering through the wall. This is after Bowen had shown his anger at Leathers being made master-of-arms, so his desire/plan to kill Jon is the secret here. The sword is the Night's Watch (sword in the darkness) and the 'broken' could be related to the perception that Jon breaks his vows.

25 sapphires. 25 secrets relevant to their particular scene.

Misc.

Shiera Seastar wore an exquisite sapphire necklace. If S+B=M is correct, her secret might be that she had a daughter - Melony/Melisandre.

Thanks to The Dornishman's Wife for a 'lil help. ;)

Seems like apophenia to me. I suspect you could find some association with lamprey pie, neeps or boiled leather, if you tried hard enough.

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“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist."

If Mance = Rhaegar Theory is true then this fits with the secret theme. Rhaegar might have worn a crown and set on the IT while his father was away. His birth is not so low, he can read and write and has been to all parts of westeros - not something a low born black brother could do. A septon probably smeared Rhaegar's head with oils. Rhaegar once owned Dragonstone. Martell/Stark wife probably did wear silk and sapphires.

Mance is championing all the freefolks.

Mance is anything but a fool from what we have seen of him so far.

Mance asks Jon about what he thought of the song.

And Martell asks Rhaegar to write a song for Aegon.

If Mance = Rhaegar, then Mance is lying to Jon, alot.

Edit: also keeping M=R and R+L=J secret from Jon.

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If Mance = Rhaegar Theory is true then this fits with the secret theme. Rhaegar might have worn a crown and set on the IT while his father was away. His birth is not so low, he can read and write and has been to all parts of westeros - not something a low born black brother could do. A septon probably smeared Rhaegar's head with oils. Rhaegar once owned Dragonstone. Martell/Stark wife probably did wear silk and sapphires.

Mance is championing all the freefolks.

Mance is anything but a fool from what we have seen of him so far.

Mance asks Jon about what he thought of the song.

And Martell asks Rhaegar to write a song for Aegon.

If Mance = Rhaegar, then Mance is lying to Jon, alot.

Edit: also keeping M=R and R+L=J secret from Jon.

Mance is not Rhaegar.

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Everybody lies

And with or without sapphires.

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snip

Mance isn't Rhaegar. The parallels exist, but for a different reason. My explanation:

Lately there has been a push by some to argue that Mance Raydar is actually Rhaegar Targaryen in disguise, hiding and waiting for the coming battle with the Others. This is based on a number of parallels between the characters that can be found in the ASoS, Jon I, when Mance and Jon first meet.

In ADwD, Mance suddenly seems to have lots of parallels with a different character, Bael the Bard. But I don't believe that this is because Mance is really Rhaegar, and Rhaegar is trying to follow in Bael's footsteps. Rather, I think GRRM is reinforcing the connection between Rhaegar and Bael, via Mance. A connection which already existed thanks to blue winter roses, Stark maidens, and their sons.

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I really liked the idea of the sapphires to alert the reader of secrets but what about the colour blue?
This is from ADWD with viewpoint from the lost lord (jon connington) page 338 Before they are going to meet the Golden Company

"When the lad emerged from the cabin with septa Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, his eyes looked blue aswell. At his throat square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from magister Illyrio. Red and black, dragon colors. That was good. "You look like a proper prince" he told the boy. "Your father would be proud if he could see you."

Young Griff ran his fingers through his hair "I am sick of this blue dye we should have washed it out."
"Soon enough." Griff would be glad to return to his own true colors too," and so on...


This is a long quote that never mentions saphires but instead uses the word blue. And its also very intresting because it actually hides two secrets instead of the typical saphire code of one secret.

The first secret is pretty obvius "I am sick of this blue dye we should have washed it out" Aegon wants to stop hiding his identity and show himself as Aegon Targareyon to the rest of the world.
However! Just a few sentences before (the first underlined quote) Aegon is mentioned of having blue eyes. In all the previus description of his eyes it´s either been darkpurple/ black like the typical Targs. I know George has done the eyecolor mistake before but Come on! He would not give Aegon blue eyes instead of purple by mistake if he´s a targareyon it´s their signature look.

So my idea is that it´s a secret in the secret (confirming the Faegon theory) That Aegon suddenly blue eyes is a prewarning for Aegon secret of revealing his true identity

So... what do you think?

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At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good.

"The boy has stones I give him that."

— Franklyn Flowers

Aegon (Young Griff) literally has stones (rubies).

Shortly after:

"Has the sun curdled your brains, Flowers?"

— Harry Strickland

The rubies have a glamouring effect when combined with dragon's blood, in my opinion.

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Bumping, I didn't see this one mentioned, but I'm not sure if it counts. From Feast, Brienne VI, (Page 472 in my copy) when Brienne is having an emotional breakdown with the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle;



"All of it came pouring out of Brienne then...the voyage down the trident, dueling Jaime in the woods, the bloody mummers, Jaime crying"Sapphires", Jaime in the tub at Harrenhal..."



Not sure what the secret could be here... he mentioned "the hound is dead" a few paragraphs earlier when urging her to give up her quest to find the Stark girls. Could that be it?



OR does this Sapphire secret not count because it's a memory?


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Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I’d need a cleaver to claim them.



Onyx is gray for Jon Connington's greyscale. Opals are often blue which could refer perhaps to Griff's hair I'm not sure. Tiger's eye is golden for the Golden Company, and tigers could represent the Volantene warhawks. Tourmaline is often pinkish or purplish, which may represent Varys, or Aegon's purple eyes. Ruby is interesting maybe he's met Mel or maybe it refers to the red of the Targaryen sigil or even the blood from "Fire and Blood". Amethyst is violet, definitely Aegon's Valyrian eyes. Sapphire is obviously for secrets. As already meantioned, the rest is green and black, representing the Dance. I'm not sure what connection Illyrio's plan has to the Dance, unless he SECRETLY wants to keep Daenerys off the Iron Throne and uphold the precedent of the Dance.

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As always Yolkboy... absolutely brilliant.



What do you make of Tobho Mott wearing a huge sapphire the size of a pigeons egg. It seems magic, like Mel's ruby. Euron came back with a sapphire the size of a "birds egg." Tobho Mott is one of only three places we have seen that has white wood (Weirwood) intertwined with black wood (ironwood). I believe that to be extremely significant aspect that symbolizes being of the gods. And that is not a good thing.



It is a subtle thing. This post is foundational to how I see magic and the conflict. This post picks up from there and explores the true enemy in the series. It is not The Others. It is Bloodraven and the other gods; people that have eaten of both the Tree of Knowledge and The Tree of Eternal Life.



That is why we will go to Highgarden. That is where Renly got his peach. He bit into the peach and told Stannis life is short. That was knowledge of his own life :)


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As always Yolkboy... absolutely brilliant.

What do you make of Tobho Mott wearing a huge sapphire the size of a pigeons egg. It seems magic, like Mel's ruby. Euron came back with a sapphire the size of a "birds egg." Tobho Mott is one of only three places we have seen that has white wood (Weirwood) intertwined with black wood (ironwood). I believe that to be extremely significant aspect that symbolizes being of the gods. And that is not a good thing.

It is a subtle thing. This post is foundational to how I see magic and the conflict. This post picks up from there and explores the true enemy in the series. It is not The Others. It is Bloodraven and the other gods; people that have eaten of both the Tree of Knowledge and The Tree of Eternal Life.

That is why we will go to Highgarden. That is where Renly got his peach. He bit into the peach and told Stannis life is short. That was knowledge of his own life :)

I've suggested an explanation in my Emeralds OP, towards the end of the AGoT section.

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Everyone has a secret and everyone obfuscates in politics.  I think it is too easy to attribute "secrets" ex post facto. 

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