What if Dan was/is the villain all along?

[ReekTheFreak]

Think about it. We never got a POV from Viserys and the POV's are unreliable. They certainly wouldn't be accepted in a court of law. I believe that Dan and Jorah conspired to murder Vis. They did this by deliberately denying Vis of his end of the bargain then luring him to his death, with the throne, in the city which just so happens to be illegal to fight in. What an amazing coincidence. also Jorah is in love with Dan. What an amazing coincidence.

Dan did nothing other than watch as her brother was brutally murdered. Oh but Vis was a bad guy right? Actually Vis probably saved Dans' life more times than he 'abused' her. I don't doubt that Vis was hot tempered but lets understand where he came from:

Vis was alive when his father was murdered in Kings Landing. Dan wasn't. He understandably wanted to get vengeance and after sellinbg all his valuables this was his last chance. What does Dan do? She takes over 2 desolate cities in the middle of nowhere and camps there so she can fuck her boyfriend. Hardly the most motivated person in the world.

Oh but he forced her to get married to Drogo and said he'd let all his men do the same if it were to get an army. You mean like literally every other arranged marriage in Westeros?

He used fear to control her. So what? That doesn't justify murder. Under the circumstances, basically being bankrupt and having 1 final chance, I think I can understand why he would resort to such measures when their lives are literally on the line. If that makes him evil then you have to be consistent. So is Catelyn Stark.

Another thing: He never actually killed anyone. Lets look at Danaerys shall we:

-Watched her brother murdered in the most brutal way

-Burned a female shaman alive

-Massaced the city of Astapor, giving no opportunity for the slavers to surrender

-Became a despised dictator of Mereen

-Endorses slavery albeit under certain conditions

-Endorses the fighting pits

I believe Viserys deserves justice. His character was harshly distorted by his murdering sister and was murdered by her and her lover, Ser Jorah.

[TheMaxx]

Dany, as much as I dislike her, is not evil. It is painfully clear that she, especially at the start of the series, is a rather good person at heart and despite Viserys treating him badly at times she did not hate him and still misses him somewhat.

[Brynden's Raven]

Oh, and she did not endorse the fighting pits off her own accord, she merely allowed them to be opened again because her advisors said it would appease the population of Meeren...

[Twist]

This has got to be a wum....

[Phonzadellika]

I like it OP, I really, really like it.

Let's not forget that Dany let her dragons roam free and when one of them ate a little girl that she covered it up.

She also sent Quentyn Martell to his death by planting the suggestion that she'd give him a dragon.

[littleRickon]

OMG you're right! She totes killed poor old Vis, that humble philanthropist.

The most wicked part is where she subtly and masterfully manipulates Viserys into threatening her unborn child with a sword in a sacred place where swords are absolutely taboo.

Of course we don't see any of these manipulations, because we don't get his POV, but I am now totally convinced that the only logical interpretation of the text is that she planted those ideas in his head using witchcraft while he was sleeping. It's so obvious now!

[end sarcasm]

[Darryk]

Not quite Maester Hodor level, but getting there.

[King Tam Stark]

and if he got his wish of raping her on her wedding night it would have been her fault as "she was asking for it"

She didn't conspire to murder him she actually stepped in previously to save his life when he was being a dick

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

He used fear to control her. So what? That doesn't justify murder.

You have no proof she conspired to murder him but you jump to this statement moments after pointing out your spurious claims. There is no evidence, you quote no phrases in the texts that could infer this, you don't propose a day they made this arrangement. If you look at some of the good theories out there like R+L=J or Red Viper was poisoning Tywin they are great because the OP has gone through and quoted evidence to back up their claims.

I do as it happens believe by the end of the story Dany will be a villian. I think she's a Anakin/Vader type character who will fall from grace even though she originally sets out aiming for good. She's certainly shown brutality and I feel her belief that the throne is hers will lead her to turn against Aegon even without evidence he is false. I do not however believe she is wholy evil. I think it shows a poor grasp of literature and indeed humanity itself to assume someone who does cruel/bad things is evil from the start and must therefore have been constantly so.

[Little Balerion]

I agree that we see majority of Essos chapters only through Dany's POV. Then there is Barristan, who seems like a 'yes-man', who would never disagree with anything that his King/Queen would say. And there is Quetyn Martell's POV where she seems pretty mean to him.

I really want to read more about Dany through a POV like Tyrion because I find Tyrion one of the more honest POVs (I think). And I think he would judge her the most fairly.

If you look at the things Dany did, she would seem like a cruel character by a third party. She was witness to her brother being slayed by her husband, burnt a maegi alive, sacked Astapor treacherously, massacred the163 wise masters. Her dragons killed many more people including a little girl Hazzea.

Would she appear cruel to a third party? Yes, she would and she should.

But in Dany's own mind - her conscience justifies everything she does. There is a point where she recollects Eroeh, Hazzea and believes that sometimes a few lives must be sacrificed to save that of others,

No queen has clean hands, Dany told herself. She thought of Doreah, of Quaro, of Eroeh … of a little girl she had never met, whose name had been Hazzea. Better a few should die in the pit than thousands at the gates. This is the price of peace, I pay it willingly.

This justification does remind me of Tywin Lannister who thought the Red Wedding was justified to maintain peace in his realm,

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.

Do you think of Tywin as evil?

To be really honest, we will never have an answer as to whether Dany is good or evil because I think GRRM wants the reader to have their own opinion just as we don't know whether Gods exist in the story or not. And because that is how it is in real life. One man's terrorist would be another man's freedom fighter/martyr.

And I think this is why GRRM has written such a great book.

For most readers, it will be incredibly hard to perceive Dany as evil, because we have been following her since Book 1 when she was an innocent girl sold to a savage as a bride. And she is a POV character which makes her all the more sympathetic to us.

That said,

Is Dany evil? Is Tywin evil?

It's the choices they make that are questionable.

[The seed is strong]

All joking aside. ASOIAF is a story about (main) characters all shades of gray, not black and white. There are no villains nor heroes.

[ReekTheFreak]

and if he got his wish of raping her on her wedding night it would have been her fault as "she was asking for it"

She didn't conspire to murder him she actually stepped in previously to save his life when he was being a dick

We have no idea if this is true. This is her side of the story.

[TepidHands]

If that makes him evil then you have to be consistent. So is Catelyn Stark.

My neurons hurt from reading that.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

and if he got his wish of raping her on her wedding night it would have been her fault as "she was asking for it"

She didn't conspire to murder him she actually stepped in previously to save his life when he was being a dick

Also this,

I don't know how you can read a book then just assume a good chunk of chapters in it are wrong and make up your own version of events. We know she didn't kill him/conspire to kill him because we read the chapter where he dies and the preceeding chapters that show their relationship deteriate. We also have quotes from Illyrio in ADWD when he is telling Tyrion about Dany, "Dothraki neither buy nor sell, say rather that her brother, Viserys gave her to Drogo to win the Khal's friendship." that back up Dany's view of events.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

We have no idea if this is true. This is her side of the story.

No it's not, Illyrio tells Tyrion this in ADWD and that if he hadn't posted guards she would have been raped. We therefore presume that he got this report from his guards. He could be making it up but he has no motive to embelish this part of her life story

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I will never like Viserys but I do feel bad for him

[Lady cut throat]

I don't think she's supposed to be a villan perse, she tries way to hard to do the right thing all the time, so much so that it blinds her to the needs of the people at times. A good example of that is the fighting pits or the fact that slaves were telling her how they ate good food and slept in good beds before they were freed and now they can barely eat.

[Faydra]

Many people(myself included) hated AGoT Sansa for the same reasons: good intentions, half measures, bad results. It was only later that I realised how much potential she has. It's the same with Dany, she's not evil.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

I agree that we see majority of Essos chapters only through Dany's POV. Then there is Barristan, who seems like a 'yes-man', who would never disagree with anything that his King/Queen would say. And there is Quetyn Martell's POV where she seems pretty mean to him.

I really want to read more about Dany through a POV like Tyrion because I find Tyrion one of the more honest POVs (I think). And I think he would judge her the most fairly.

If you look at the things Dany did, she would seem like a cruel character by a third party. She was witness to her brother being slayed by her husband, burnt a maegi alive, sacked Astapor treacherously, massacred the163 wise masters. Her dragons killed many more people including a little girl Hazzea.

Would she appear cruel to a third party? Yes, she would and she should.

But in Dany's own mind - her conscience justifies everything she does. There is a point where she recollects Eroeh, Hazzea and believes that sometimes a few lives must be sacrificed to save that of others,

This justification does remind me of Tywin Lannister who thought the Red Wedding was justified to maintain peace in his realm,

Do you think of Tywin as evil?

To be really honest, we will never have an answer as to whether Dany is good or evil because I think GRRM wants the reader to have their own opinion just as we don't know whether Gods exist in the story or not. And because that is how it is in real life. One man's terrorist would be another man's freedom fighter/martyr.

And I think this is why GRRM has written such a great book.

For most readers, it will be incredibly hard to perceive Dany as evil, because we have been following her since Book 1 when she was an innocent girl sold to a savage as a bride. And she is a POV character which makes her all the more sympathetic to us.

That said,

Is Dany evil? Is Tywin evil?

It's the choices they make that are questionable.

This is good summary of where she is now and her acts in the last book. However the OP is deducing she is evil from this and then applying this retrospectively to previous chapters of her life and where they don't fit he's disregarding what we are told for something that better fits this notion of her as evil. I like a good discussion on Dany's character (though there are some great threads on this already) I just like to remove it from what is a terribly poor theory.

[David Selig]

This is a ridiculous hate thread which is bound to get locked soon, but youy get points for creativity at least.