Jump to content

Bakker - "You worship suffering."


lokisnow

Recommended Posts

that's good. i think of the gender stuff as deftly handled, as in, we may disagree with the political propositions, but i doubt he did it by accident. as to the defects, there are some semantically ambiguous bits in the second series that struck me as potentially proleptic or potentially inartfully drafted or potentially deliberate ambiguity to fuck with us. i'll have to go back through my marginalia to find them, so it may take some time.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

that's good. i think of the gender stuff as deftly handled, as in, we may disagree with the political propositions, but i doubt he did it by accident.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I don't really get the "He did it by accident and is now retroactively claiming to have these gender exploration angles" crowd. We must cleanse them from the fandom - some pollution begs not the cloth, but the knife. But hey I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

as to the defects, there are some semantically ambiguous bits in the second series that struck me as potentially proleptic or potentially inartfully drafted or potentially deliberate ambiguity to fuck with us. i'll have to go back through my marginalia to find them, so it may take some time.

Ah gotcha, looking forward to it.

I think the flashbacks/flashforwards of the first series tie into the Kellhusian POV which allow one to have a defined frame that transcends the cast.

Keeping in mind Bakker in the latest post mentioning a series "as tight as a single book" I suspect the lack of such framing [in the second series] throws [us readers] into the same uncertainties faced by the cast, specifically Mimara and Sorweel. I'd say by the end of WLW we know about as much as they do. The first book has Big Moe telling us about how lessers are caught in the winding gears of their betters, but given all the advantages of sitting above the story we held the POV of the betters if not the best via Kellhus.

Then in the second trilogy this man we once knew is alien to us, heading toward the home of Aurang. I think this the uncertainty is especially important in making male readers empathize with Sorweel, who is dragged into the wastes by Kellhus's plan...whatever that may be. The more our POV matches his, the better Sorweel as a "fiction suit" fits us. So going through his infatuation with Serwa, culminating in the masturbation scene, affects us more than if we were privy to the outcome or to Kellhus's intentions.

(As an aside, I'm more keen now on the infatuation culminating in discovered masturbation as commentary than I originally was.)

TL;DR: The analepsis/prolepsis of the original series is necessary to bring about the emotional connection via the lack of analepsis/prolepsis in the second series. Also, getting called out for jerking off by the object of your lust would be like a porn star suddenly breaking the fourth wall and mocking you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's a douchey comment and a douchier response, and is, in fact, asymptotic to perfect, mathematical douchitude.

So hawt.

The rest of it isn't worth commenting on. Good to hear he has made progress, though rewriting an entire quarter of the book does not sound promising.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I wouldn't expect it until late 2014 if that's the case. Maybe he'll just give up and release the draft without a ton of rethinking, since that might be better in Bakker's case (guy overthinks too much).



Good of him to confirm that he was actively stoking controversy with the troublesome women-related aspects of the book. I take back my argument about him being ignorant of it, and then just getting defensive - he knew it was going to happen, and then got defensive about it anyways.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I wouldn't expect it until late 2014 if that's the case. Maybe he'll just give up and release the draft without a ton of rethinking, since that might be better in Bakker's case (guy overthinks too much).

I doubt it. This isn't LTG or whatever (and note that even then he planned to release it). This is basically His Thing, for better or worse. He'd want to put it out correctly if not only for financial reasons then for artistic on

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you make of the WLW's visions? And what possibly "undisciplined defects" do you see?

Ignoring for a moment the fact that undisciplined prolepsis sounds like a porn genre: I can remember at least one proleptic moment, I think it’s in the beginning of White Luck Warrior, when the Holy War builds some kind of huge monument after leaving Sakarpus. The omniscient narrative voice tells us that the names of these men would be holy in the generations to come, or they would be sung of by their children, or something like that. It anticipates a future where Humanity still lives.

Another, less clear example, occurs in a confrontation between two sorcerers attached to the Army of the South.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The omniscient narrative voice tells us that the names of these men would be holy in the generations to come, or they would be sung of by their children, or something like that. It anticipates a future where Humanity still lives.

Hmm. I thought this was indicating a future where their children, all five of them, will start a choir to pass the time in the little room in Golgotterath that will be Humanity's home for eternity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is that breaking the fourth wall?

That'd be him/her, mocking you.

It'd be breaking the fourth wall if in the middle of the movie, the star turned and looked at the camera and called you out for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that's good. i think of the gender stuff as deftly handled, as in, we may disagree with the political propositions, but i doubt he did it by accident. as to the defects, there are some semantically ambiguous bits in the second series that struck me as potentially proleptic or potentially inartfully drafted or potentially deliberate ambiguity to fuck with us. i'll have to go back through my marginalia to find them, so it may take some time.

Please do, solo.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that undisciplined prolepsis sounds like a porn genre: I can remember at least one proleptic moment, I think it’s in the beginning of White Luck Warrior, when the Holy War builds some kind of huge monument after leaving Sakarpus. The omniscient narrative voice tells us that the names of these men would be holy in the generations to come, or they would be sung of by their children, or something like that. It anticipates a future where Humanity still lives.

Another, less clear example, occurs in a confrontation between two sorcerers attached to the Army of the South.

Truth Shines found this one in another conversation on SA:

"... an endless train of supplies wound in front of the southern horizon, bearing arms, wares, rations, and more rations... Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen -- a name that would later become holy."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some awesome fodder from the blog :O!



litgreg:



After what’s been a looooong summer, this is good news indeed! So by the tone of the post I gather this is it, the grand finale? I know in the past you have mentioned the possibility of a book or two to follow this one, but this post would suggest otherwise.



RSB:



Thanks, litg. The end of TAE is the end of the tale as I originally conceived it decades ago. All the plot threads from the two trilogies are cinched into a kind of Gordian knot (I fear you’ll have to wait to see what I mean). Fate had forbidden any mention of the two books I have planned after this.



Justin Voss:


By the way….what does Sranc taste like?



RSB:


“Four Revelations” holds the answer to your final question…



Adam:



Are there more books after The Unholy Consult?

How long is The Unholy Consult (word count, chapter count) in this first draft?


Is it longer than previous volumes?


Will there be an appendix included with The Unholy Consult, as there was with The Thousandfold Thought?


Will you be sending the rest of Chapter One to Pat soon?


What’s the name of your favorite new character to write into a scene in The Unholy Consult?




RSB:




Yes, but I can’t really comment on them. TUC wraps all the arcs established through the series thus far – brings me to the end of my original story idea, way back when. If I were to keel over tomorrow, the mortician would have to use forceps and wire to wipe the shit-eating grin from my face.


It is almost exactly 300 000 words as it stands.


Very much so.


I want there to be, but this needs to be settled with my publishers.


Yes. I owe him an apology email first. I’m not sure if I’ll begin the rewrite with it – there’s a few middling details I need to iron out first. I have to wait see. I decided to the day off and get loaded yesterday, so I really don’t have any plan of attack. Just a headache.


My new favourite is Malowebi.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ignoring for a moment the fact that undisciplined prolepsis sounds like a porn genre: I can remember at least one proleptic moment, I think it’s in the beginning of White Luck Warrior, when the Holy War builds some kind of huge monument after leaving Sakarpus. The omniscient narrative voice tells us that the names of these men would be holy in the generations to come, or they would be sung of by their children, or something like that. It anticipates a future where Humanity still lives.

Another, less clear example, occurs in a confrontation between two sorcerers attached to the Army of the South.

I recall the first one, the second one isn't something that sticks out.

More and more it makes me think Kellhus is going to occupy Golgoterath and utilize the Tekne for his own purposes. As much as he likes magic, science is something where the Dunyain mind could create wonders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Damn, 300,000 words is crazy. I also did not know that TUC was actually the end of all these arcs in the way he's making it sound, nor that it was his original "end point" he thought of decades ago. Really makes me wonder what the hell the next two books will be like.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Damn, 300,000 words is crazy. I also did not know that TUC was actually the end of all these arcs in the way he's making it sound, nor that it was his original "end point" he thought of decades ago. Really makes me wonder what the hell the next two books will be like.

Crazy seems a bit strong, that's just as long as Game of Thrones or Feast for Crows (and more than 100k less than Storm of Swords). But it is going to be a very long book given that WLW felt pretty long and this is half again longer than that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some awesome fodder from the blog :o!

litgreg:

After what’s been a looooong summer, this is good news indeed! So by the tone of the post I gather this is it, the grand finale? I know in the past you have mentioned the possibility of a book or two to follow this one, but this post would suggest otherwise.

RSB:

Thanks, litg. The end of TAE is the end of the tale as I originally conceived it decades ago. All the plot threads from the two trilogies are cinched into a kind of Gordian knot (I fear you’ll have to wait to see what I mean). Fate had forbidden any mention of the two books I have planned after this.

Justin Voss:

By the way….what does Sranc taste like?

RSB:

“Four Revelations” holds the answer to your final question…

Adam:

Are there more books after The Unholy Consult?

How long is The Unholy Consult (word count, chapter count) in this first draft?

Is it longer than previous volumes?

Will there be an appendix included with The Unholy Consult, as there was with The Thousandfold Thought?

Will you be sending the rest of Chapter One to Pat soon?

What’s the name of your favorite new character to write into a scene in The Unholy Consult?

RSB:

Yes, but I can’t really comment on them. TUC wraps all the arcs established through the series thus far – brings me to the end of my original story idea, way back when. If I were to keel over tomorrow, the mortician would have to use forceps and wire to wipe the shit-eating grin from my face.

It is almost exactly 300 000 words as it stands.

Very much so.

I want there to be, but this needs to be settled with my publishers.

Yes. I owe him an apology email first. I’m not sure if I’ll begin the rewrite with it – there’s a few middling details I need to iron out first. I have to wait see. I decided to the day off and get loaded yesterday, so I really don’t have any plan of attack. Just a headache.

My new favourite is Malowebi.

Nice info, he's usually so grudging with the details. 300k sounds like it's nearly a third longer than WLW. I get the feeling the typesetting will be a bit closer together (or there will be a couple hundred more pages), and this news makes me very happy indeed. Not too worried about the re-writes, he did this with The Judging Eye and White Luck Warrior and it doesn't appear that RSB, despite his trolling, is getting to GRRM extremes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crazy seems a bit strong, that's just as long as Game of Thrones or Feast for Crows (and more than 100k less than Storm of Swords). But it is going to be a very long book given that WLW felt pretty long and this is half again longer than that.

It's "crazy", IMO, if he uses that length to both push the narrative to its natural conclusion and reveal the underlying conflict/secrets that have driven the series so far. TTT, for example, was what, 150k? On the other hand, one can chunk out 200k-300k and not reveal much of anything; see Jordan's turgid third act (Path of Daggers through Crossroads) or Feast, for that matter, which I liked but did not significantly move much of anything forward or reveal much more than "Westeros is in shambles."

So... 300k means we're getting a lot, from previous experience, and as I've stated elsewhere, the success or failure of TAE is predicated on this last novel. 300k means RSB is probably not leaving (much) deliberately ambiguous, at least towards the surface conflict(s).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The longest previous book was The Warrior-Prophet, which was 205,000 words, so yeah, this is pretty big by his standards. However, it will come down a bit in rewrites, I imagine.



More worrying is the bit where he says there is a possibility that The Unholy Consult might have to be split into two volumes.



Hey, he gave Mith quite massive props in the comments.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...