Sansa Stark and Arya Stark relationship

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Well clearly. In fact, I think one of the characters even says it's Sansa's hand but Cersei's words (this might have been a conversation between Robb and Catelyn, I can't recall for sure and don't have the book in front of me). I did not at all mean this as criticism of Sansa, I'm just curious to know what effect, if any, the loss of her wolf might have on her connection to the rest of the family.

Personally I hope that @Ludd is correct and she gets another direwolf.

The Stark family connections were all in place and quite strong long before direwolves made an appearance in their lives. The effect on Sansa of the loss of her direwolf doesn't affect that connection in the least. It does, however, affect her realization and/or engagement with her skinchanging ability.

[Bippy]

Depending on how Sansa develops in the next book, I think she's got the capacity to be a lot more dangerous than Arya. The fact that she literally forgot about Arya in the stress of pleading with Cersei in GoT is ominous. Then that absence of Arya from the letter to Robb is underlined again. I've come to think it predicts a complete estrangement if not worse.

ETA: In other words, we may want to consider that maybe it's not LF who will be made to fly. Maybe it'll be Arya.

[The Blazed Knight]

Sansa definitely contributed to the death of lady. She wouldn't stand up for her family for her own pack. If she had offered her true account her wolf would be alive. She never deserved a wolf in my opinion, shes more Tully then Stark. I hope that Arya can somehow reunite with her direwolf. Who cares if she reunites with Sansa? Not me :)

[Sansa_Stark]

It seems that everyone forget how many people betrayed Ned, and that Ned truly was incapable of surprising Cersei. Janos Slynt betrayed him, so no matter when would Ned decide to strike, Janos would have simply told Cersei. When we see what Sansa told Cersei about leaving city, Arya's location, name of the ship, number of men... All in all, it was nothing essential for Cersei's plans to arrest Ned.

But, it did hinder Ned's position, no doubt in that. But, only that he was ready to say he was a traitor, nothing more. And Sansa certainly didn't hinder Robb's plans. He continued fighting without thinking about his sisters... Yes, possibilities. Just imagine that Arya would have to marry Frey boy... Ah, Arya Frey... That is also one of those possibilities people usually forget...

Isn't this a massive deal regardless?

I'm not a Sansa expert so I'll just ask. Are you implying that Sansa would have been able to escape if not for her betrayal? He would never confess traitor unless Cersei had her hostage.

If so. Even if Ned were arrested, would Cersei have killed him? Cersei still has to deal with Robb and her original

plan was to get Robb to stop by having Ned confess and to tell Robb to stand down. If Sansa escapes she cannot do this.

I imagine things go very differently if this is the case.

1. If Ned is executed, then Jaime Lannister gets executed later as well. The Lannisters go crazy.

2. However, if they are stupid enough to trade Jaime for Ned, then you have a reliable witness who can back up Stannis' accusations.

I know this is a case of ifs, but doesn't Sansa's betrayal actually change things greatly?

[Mladen]

Isn't this a massive deal regardless?

I'm not a Sansa expert so I'll just ask. Are you implying that Sansa would have been able to escape if not for her betrayal? He would never confess traitor unless Cersei had her hostage.

If so. Even if Ned were arrested, would Cersei have killed him? Cersei still has to deal with Robb and her original

plan was to get Robb to stop by having Ned confess and to tell Robb to stand down. If Sansa escapes she cannot do this.

I imagine things go very differently if this is the case.

1. If Ned is executed, then Jaime Lannister gets executed later as well. The Lannisters go crazy.

2. However, if they are stupid enough to trade Jaime for Ned, then you have a reliable witness who can back up Stannis' accusations.

I know this is a case of ifs, but doesn't Sansa's betrayal actually change things greatly?

You have timeline a bit messed up... It is a big deal for Ned, and she so-to-speak screwed herself, but it didn't influence things the way you imply:

1. Ned confessed being traitor solely for Sansa, but Cersei didn't kill him. She planned to sent him to Wall. Joffrey surprised everyone with decision.

2. Cersei could have always blackmailed Robb by threatening him with Ned's life

3. Battle of Whispering Woods came after Ned's execution, therefore exchanging one for another was never viable option

4. Cersei would change Ned for Jaime, so would Tywin...

Sansa didn't influence anything, since:

1. Her actions didn't lead to Ned's death

2. Robb continued his campaign regardless of Sansa

The only thing Sansa did influence is perhaps Jaime staying alive, but then again, I think Sansa was the last on Robb's mind when Jaime was captured...

[Sansa_Stark]

Actually I don't. If Sansa was gone then would Ned have appeared in front of up Baelor in public? He wouldn't have confessed. He would probably just have stayed in the Black Cells for longer. Cersei was still afraid enough of Robb not to off anything funny with Ned's life. If Ned was kept prisoner long enough, then its not unreasonable to think the battles might have had such a same outcome. Jaime could have been still been captured which would change everything. And if Cersei did blackmail Robb with his father's life before anything with Jaime happened, then Sansa did influence whether her father died or not. Without a confession from Ned Cersei cannot really do anything to Ned. She cannot even send him to the wall. He is a hostage, and if he is executed Robb would fight. If he is sent to the wall, then he will talk. If he is kept prisoner, Robb either fights or backs down. Which choice he makes is a complete unknown .

[Mladen]

Actually I don't. If Sansa was gone then would Ned have appeared in front of up Baelor in public? He wouldn't have confessed. He would probably just have stayed in the Black Cells for longer. Cersei was still afraid enough of Robb not to off anything funny with Ned's life. If Ned was kept prisoner long enough, then its not unreasonable to think the battles might have had such a same outcome. Jaime could have been still been captured which would change everything. And if Cersei did blackmail Robb with his father's life before anything with Jaime happened, then Sansa did influence whether her father died or not. Without a confession from Ned Cersei cannot really do anything to Ned. She cannot even send him to the wall. He is a hostage, and if he is executed Robb would fight. If he is sent to the wall, then he will talk. If he is kept prisoner, Robb either fights or backs down. Which choice he makes is a complete unknown .

Bolded part: Once again, Cersei wasn't the one that killed Ned. And do you actually think that for sentence they need traitor's confession?

But you are putting way too much on Ned's admission of being traitor. Joffrey could have easily killed him even without scene on Baelor's steps. Ned was already charged with treason, and Joffrey could just have done the same without Ned's confession. And, then result would be the same... Sansa and Arya might even be caught somewhere during the journey, or they would go to Winterfell and be captured by Theon... All in all, Sansa's actions backfired mostly on her.

[Sansa_Stark]

Well yeah. I am well aware that Joff ordered Ned's executions. But Cersei was the one who put Ned into a situation where was executed. And your arguments have pretty much gone to ifs and unknowns at this point. Ned was stuck in prison for quite a while and Joff didn't do anything. And if Ned did confess, that only gives Joffrey greater incentive to execute him. Saying that Sansa didn't influence any factors in Ned's death is really probably just an unknown at best. And if one chooses to interpret that she did have influence with his death, then I can't really disagee with him or her.

[Mladen]

Well yeah. I am well aware that Joff ordered Ned's executions. But Cersei was the one who put Ned into a situation where was executed. And your arguments have pretty much gone to ifs and unknowns at this point. Ned was stuck in prison for quite a while and Joff didn't do anything. And if Ned did confess, that only gives Joffrey greater incentive to execute him. Saying that Sansa didn't influence any factors in Ned's death is really probably just an unknown at best. And if one chooses to interpret that she did have influence with his death, then I can't really disagee with him or her.

No, I am not speaking about ifs. Joffrey didn't need Ned's confession to kill him, that is a fact. Traitors are getting killed, with or without their confessions, or do you actually believe they all waited until traitor confesses their crime. Sansa had nothing to do with Ned's death, and no train of logic supported by text could ever get you there. Ned's death wasn't dependent on the fact he was at Baelor's steps, it was dependent on Joffrey's whim and possibly someone's manipulation.

[Sansa_Stark]

Yes you are. Saying Joffrey would have had Ned killed for certain is a if or an unknown. Is it probable or likely? Yes it is. Is it a definite thing? No it isn't. Different factors always change things. Ned is not some random "traitor" he is the warden of the north. He can't just be killed without a trial or confession. Its likely Cersei and Varys might make sure he isn"t killed in prison.

[Mladen]

Yes you are. Saying Joffrey would have had Ned killed for certain is a if or an unknown. Is it probable or likely? Yes it is. Is it a definite thing? No it isn't. Different factors always change things. Ned is not some random "traitor" he is the warden of the north. He can't just be killed without a trial or confession. Its likely Cersei and Varys might make sure he isn"t killed in prison.

OK, explore all options. let we say he has a trial. Who will be the judge? The Crown, Joffrey principally. He can't demand trial by combat given his health. That leaves us King's mercy, which we got... In all cases, Ned's life was dependent on Joffrey, and we have seen how that turned out. It seems like people here have such selective memory. Ned was supposed to live... Joffrey put an end to it.

[Sansa_Stark]

A trial still has to have a large amount of witnesses. If Ned played his cards right he could have accused Joff of being a bastard. Play it off right and Ned could save his life.And as I recall. There was one man who might have been willing to stand for Ned. Barristan the Bold perhaps. He was at Neds execution. With Ned's accusation and his hatred for Lannisters I could totally see Barristan sticking up for Ned. That is assuming a trial does happen. Ned couldn just be locked in the black cells for a few years. Point is you're acting like your opinion is fact. Its not. There are always other factors and unknowns that can change.

[Mladen]

A trial still has to have a large amount of witnesses. If Ned played his cards right he could have accused Joff of being a bastard. Play it off right and Ned could save his life.And as I recall. There was one man who might have been willing to stand for Ned. Barristan the Bold perhaps. He was at Neds execution. With Ned's accusation and his hatred for Lannisters I could totally see Barristan sticking up for Ned. That is assuming a trial does happen. Ned couldn just be locked in the black cells for a few years. Point is you're acting like your opinion is fact. Its not. There are always other factors and unknowns that can change.

Barristan was fired before Ned's execution. Therefore, Barristan couldn't have helped him in any way. I am not behaving like my opinion is a fact, but I simply, from everything I have read from books, can't blame Sansa in any way for Ned's execution. His imprisonment, yes, his hindrance in negotiations, yes. But his death is on Joffrey, and "shadow on the wall" - IMO, LF. Also, I can't say that Sansa in any way influenced Robb's campaign or any part of the war. Everything that happened to Robb is on Robb himself.

[Sansa_Stark]

Exactly. Barristan was fired whenever Ned was still in jail. If Ned called for trial then its not crazy to think Barristan would be watching and could stand in for Ned. And yes you are acting as if your opinion is fact. "No train of logic supported by text could get you there." Yes Joff had Ned exexuted. But Sansa clearly had some influence on whether or not Ned lived or died in my POV. She might not have been the one to order his death. But she was a burden to Ned. She had more influence than just keeping Jaime alive.

[Mladen]

Exactly. Barristan was fired whenever Ned was still in jail. If Ned called for trial then its not crazy to think Barristan would be watching and could stand in for Ned. And yes you are acting as if your opinion is fact. "No train of logic supported by text could get you there." Yes Joff had Ned exexuted. But Sansa clearly had some influence on whether or not Ned lived or died in my POV. She might not have been the one to order his death. But she was a burden to Ned. She had more influence than just keeping Jaime alive.

Your POV is not supported by text, and by this moment you have brought nothing that would actually prove your point. And your last resort is to attack someone rather than argue with textual proofs and conclusions that are based on what is written in the text... I am sorry, but if what I say sounds like a fact to you, there must be a reason... I normally write posts that are in accordance with text, not my what/if imaginary situations...

And Barristan was wanted man, he couldn't have just walked into Red Keep and testify for Ned...

[David Selig]

Would Ned have been arrested regardless of whether Sansa had disclosed his plans? Most likely. But lets not downplay the consequences of Sansa's actions. Her actions caused two things to happen. One, it didn't give Ned enough time to put his own plan into action. Cersei knew that Ned had tried to bribe the City Watch into arresting her and her kids. But she didn't know when Ned was going to spring the trap. Once Sansa tells her that Ned will be getting the girls out of King's Landing, Cersei immediately puts her plan into action. Thus Ned's surprise when Cersei calls him to the throne room sooner than he'd expected or hoped. That is all because of Sansa's disclosure.

Cersei knew that Ned would make his move immediately after Robert's death. That's Royal Succession 101 - you move as soon as possible and he's Ned Stark, no chance of him forgetting that Joff is a bastard and not acting on it.

How is Cersei supposed to know that Ned tried to bribe the Watch, but not when they were supposed to strike, BTW?

Ned's plan was to use the Goldcloaks. They were never on his side, so timing doesn't matter.

Not to mention that the arrangement for Sansa to leave KL was made before Robert was injured and had nothing to do with the timing of Ned's actions afterwards.

The other consequence of Sansa's disclosure is that it allowed Cersei to get additional hostages in order to completely handcuff Ned and what he was able to do. If Sansa and Arya are back in Winterfell then Ned doesn't have to confess to being a traitor. He can ask for a trial - does Cersei really want a trial where Ned gets to present evidence of Joffrey's true parentage? Or Ned could have just died - as he was prepared to do before Varys tells him about Sansa. And also think about how Robb was hindered also. And Cat wouldn't have had to free Jaime. Oh man, the possibilities are endless!

Huh? The only reason Arya was able to get away was that she had a superbadass sword teacher at hand. Sansa would've been taken anyway.

[~No One~]

Sorry to interrupt, but *to the OP*:

I think that much has been made of the development of both girls' characters to the point that IF they ever see each other again, (big if, there) they will be happy to learn that they have surviving family. Nothing that happened in KL ages ago compares to what they have been through since.

I doubt if Arya has any way of finding out that Sansa tattled to Cersei, and anyway, that is already something that Arya experienced (Ruby Ford) and still she misses Sansa.

Both girls have learned the hard way - the VERY hard way - that the pack survives. They'll forgive each other.

[Sansa_Stark]

No. You are clearly trying to pass your opinion off as a fact. Saying my POV is not supported by the text is trying to pass your opinion as fact since my interpretation is different and yet you're claiming that it is wrong. I have brought up various points which you just ignored just because....Post 67 was argued entirely with ifs, coulds and mights. So yes, you do did argue based off imagination.

[Sansa_Stark]

I am done arguing btw.

[Mladen]

No. You are clearly trying to pass your opinion off as a fact. Saying my POV is not supported by the text is trying to pass your opinion as fact since my interpretation is different and yet you're claiming that it is wrong. I have brought up various points which you just ignored just because....Post 67 was argued entirely with ifs, coulds and mights. So yes, you do did argue based off imagination.

I am not the one calling my posts facts, you are. And thank you for that... I respect anyone's POV as long as it is supported by text. Yours, IMO, isn't. We can argue about that all day, but I think I am right... It is simple as that...

And my friend, don't confuse imagination with logic... Everything I said is based on logical conclusions of what has happened.