Heresy 73

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 73, this week’s edition of the thread which takes a closer look at the Song of Ice and Fire, the secret conflict underlying the Game of Thrones.

Its called heresy because here we challenge the orthodoxy that the Song of Ice and Fire is simply about defeating the Others and that the Children of the Forest are the good guys.

Some of us suspect otherwise, for the Pact agreed on the Isle of Faces was a one sided one which saw the Children surrender their lands, all but the deep woods, and it saw them surrender their weapons, 100 pieces of dragonglass every year. And in the end Men still broke the Pact; by cutting down the weirwoods, slaughtering the Children and driving the survivors beyond the Wall to face extinction.

Instead, the weirwood faces of the white walkers in the HBO show may point to a connection with the Old Gods already admitted but not yet explained by GRRM, and now as Qhorin Halfhand warned, the Old Powers are awakening, the trees have eyes again - and Gendel’s children are always hungry.

And then there’s the Wall itself, which dominates the story and is apparently the magical hinge or boundary between the Realms of Men and the Otherlands beyond. It was raised and maintained by great and dark magic, and may well be the cause of the Long Night. Moreover it may originally have been built by the Children not to protect Westeros but the Otherlands. It is, according to Ygritte, made of blood. Perhaps then the Wall must come down to achieve a resolution of the conflict and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else, for to quote Janet Clouston: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Others and the rest of the Old Powers together represent only one side of a conflict that has been waged since time began.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, and recent discussion has once again looked closely at the white walkers, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail, including creatures of ice and creatures of fire.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new to the game and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Bran becoming a tree, slowly stopping to care about the humans... it would be the worst, and uninspired, end.

There's a garden but no weirwood or godswood at the Eyrie. We're specifically told that trees couldn't root that high up.

The theory you may be thinking of is wat we heretics call the snowflake communion.

Briefly, Sansa walks out into the freshly falling snow and is standing there when a snowflake kisses her on the lips. There's then a jump in time. She is on her knees and realises that the sky has grown brighter in the meantime. Its after that she then determinedly sets about building the model of Winterfell and begins changing into a much harder more determined Sansa. Some of us think that Winter entered her at that point.

If so, the theory also runs, there is some significance to the snowflakes which dance with Jon Snow.

After Varamyr pov I started to believe that the "old gods" don't need weirwood. They have stones, moss, flowers, snow, fire... everything. As if the old gods are a magic field that envolves the entire world.

Dragon/human hybrid?

Might well be what's in Valyria and what the Targaryens fled from

I still think that firewyrms, ASOIAF, are just non-winged dragons, no fly, just digging.

[Harlan]

this is a post from page 20 of heresy 72

I was curious about Wolfmaid's comments on the Other's screaming swords a few posts back. And started wondering about Wymar Royce's sword shattering and Sam's dragonglass blade absorbing so much cold after contact with the Popsicle. This youtube is very interesting. What happens when metals comes in contact with dry ice.

I'd just like to say hurray for more evidence of popsicles being composed of super-cooled air.

[King of Winters]

I still think that firewyrms, ASOIAF, are just non-winged dragons, no fly, just digging.

I've always imagined Firewyrms as giant worm-like like creatures that can breath fire.

Bran becoming a tree, slowly stopping to care about the humans... it would be the worst, and uninspired, end.

I think Bran will eventually merge with the Winterfell Godswood but he'll still care about humans.

[Urrax]

I've always imagined Firewyrms as giant worm-like like creatures that can breath fire....

They don't have to be worm-like. Wyrm is an Old English word for dragon.

[Black Crow]

I agree, but in any case, what GRRM was referring to were Wyverns not Wryms. Heraldically dragon head and tail, usual wings but only two legs rather than four.

As I said I can see it panning out as some kind of human/dragon hyrid - taking this blood of the dragon thing a stage further. My only real reservation being that he is reported as "possibly" introducing them, which suggests a wrinkle rather than a major plot device.

[King of Winters]

They don't have to be worm-like. Wyrm is an Old English word for dragon.

Yeah, I've just always imagined them as worm-like.

[Urrax]

I agree, but in any case, what GRRM was referring to were Wyverns not Wryms. Heraldically dragon head and tail, usual wings but only two legs rather than four.

As I said I can see it panning out as some kind of human/dragon hyrid - taking this blood of the dragon thing a stage further. My only real reservation being that he is reported as "possibly" introducing them, which suggests a wrinkle rather than a major plot device.

Yeah, since his dragons are wyverns already (in the usual sense), he must have some special use of the term in mind.

"Possibly." Wish he'd be certain about things, and get back to his desk and finish off the series instead of swanning around to conventions etc.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

There are also examples of water Wyverns with a fishes tail instead of a pointy one. Hmmmmm, who do I know that has a Dragon Horn and does a lot of sailing...

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I've just always imagined them as worm-like.

You mean as in wurrums :cool4:

[wolfmaid7]

this is a post from page 20 of heresy 72

I'd just like to say hurray for more evidence of popsicles being composed of super-cooled air.

I'm sorry Harlan that doesn't mean a lot this world. Case in point Ser puddles I don't think anyone here was or is arguing that Popsicles are cold, I'm however denying that they are " the cold ".

In a world where magic abounds in some aspects science can't explain what is happening. I don't know how you think this proves Popsicles are super cool air seeing as it was in fact in one instance the weapons that contacted each other . Screaming was also heard when Ser puddles sword touched the flame of Daeron's torch.

[Black Crow]

I think Bran will eventually merge with the Winterfell Godswood but he'll still care about humans.

I'm not so sure. If we go back again to the Mabinogion. Once Bran's head (which is oif course all that matters of our Bran) was buried under the white hill he remained there forever watching over the Island of Britain. There is an odd little wrinkle to this in that although other sites are offered, such as the great chalk mound of Silbury, the white hill is traditionally identified with the site of the Tower of London, and at the Tower there are ravens, cared for by a ravenmaster, because tradition holds that dire things will happen if they ever leave. This tradition is now thought to be Victorian, but its still out there for authors seeking inspiration...

[Harlan]

I'm sorry Harlan that doesn't mean a lot this world. Case in point Ser puddles I don't think anyone here was or is arguing that Popsicles are cold, I'm however denying that they are " the cold ".

In a world where magic abounds in some aspects science can't explain what is happening. I don't know how you think this proves Popsicles are super cool air seeing as it was in fact in one instance the weapons that contacted each other . Screaming was also heard when Ser puddles sword touched the flame of Daeron's torch.

It doesn't prove anything. It's just interesting that an explanation which was invented to explain something completely unrelated (lack of foot prints) also happens to explain why the swords scream. In regards to using real world science to help explain observations from the book, I have to disagree with you. GRRM is a Science Fiction author (in addition to everything else he writes). He has also stated on numerous occasions that magic in his world will be used much less than most other fantasy novels. He is trying to give his world a sense of realism that can only be maintained by keeping the the rules of the WoIaF as close to ours as possible. It seems reasonable to me to think that solid gas (or any other substance capable of sublimation) will behave the same or nearly the same way as it would if it were in the real world.

[LynnS]

It doesn't prove anything. It's just interesting that an explanation which was invented to explain something completely unrelated (lack of foot prints) also happens to explain why the swords scream. In regards to using real world science to help explain observations from the book, I have to disagree with you. GRRM is a Science Fiction author (in addition to everything else he writes). He has also stated on numerous occasions that magic in his world will be used much less than most other fantasy novels. He is trying to give his world a sense of realism that can only be maintained by keeping the the rules of the WoIaF as close to ours as possible. It seems reasonable to me to think that solid gas (or any other substance capable of sublimation) will behave the same or nearly the same way as it would if it were in the real world.

I wonder about the white mist or shadow as well that seem to go hand in hand with popsicles.. Too much carbon dioxide? Too much exposure causing death. It's a bit of a stretch.

[Black Crow]

It doesn't prove anything. It's just interesting that an explanation which was invented to explain something completely unrelated (lack of foot prints) also happens to explain why the swords scream. In regards to using real world science to help explain observations from the book, I have to disagree with you. GRRM is a Science Fiction author (in addition to everything else he writes). He has also stated on numerous occasions that magic in his world will be used much less than most other fantasy novels. He is trying to give his world a sense of realism that can only be maintained by keeping the the rules of the WoIaF as close to ours as possible. It seems reasonable to me to think that solid gas (or any other substance capable of sublimation) will behave the same or nearly the same way as it would if it were in the real world.

I agree. It doesn't to my mind lend any support to the theory that the white walkers have a misty form, but it does provide a very good physical explanation for the screaming noise as ordinary metal comes into contact with something as cold as we're told Craster's boys really are. Its certainly a much more convincing explanation than the theory that the swords - made of ice - are full of an unfortunate child's life-force.

Good catch.

[Black Crow]

I wonder about the white mist or shadow as well that seem to go hand in hand with popsicles.. Too much carbon dioxide? Too much exposure causing death. It's a bit of a stretch.

There are two possible explanations not requiring their having a misty form.

The magical explanation is that its just the effect of their emerging from a concealing glamour.

The prosaic explanation is that they are so cold the air condenses in close proximity to them.

On balance I have to confess the latter seems so ridiculously simple its most likely the right answer.

[King of Winters]

There are two possible explanations not requiring their having a misty form.

The magical explanation is that its just the effect of their emerging from a concealing glamour.

The prosaic explanation is that they are so cold the air condenses in close proximity to them.

On balance I have to confess the latter seems so ridiculously simple its most likely the right answer.

Even though the latter could be the right answer, I like the idea of it be a concealing glamour.

[wolfmaid7]

It doesn't prove anything. It's just interesting that an explanation which was invented to explain something completely unrelated (lack of foot prints) also happens to explain why the swords scream. In regards to using real world science to help explain observations from the book, I have to disagree with you. GRRM is a Science Fiction author (in addition to everything else he writes). He has also stated on numerous occasions that magic in his world will be used much less than most other fantasy novels. He is trying to give his world a sense of realism that can only be maintained by keeping the the rules of the WoIaF as close to ours as possible. It seems reasonable to me to think that solid gas (or any other substance capable of sublimation) will behave the same or nearly the same way as it would if it were in the real world.

You misunderstand me or I think I may not have explained myself . I concede that the impact of metal on dry ice does sound like a scream. My focus was that it was the weapons and not Popsicles therefore we can't say Popsicles are mist from that and we can't use " that" science to explain something that may simply be magical because we can't find a physical answer to it .

I found the experiment pretty cool but does that mean the swords are co2 based probably not.Im on my phone so excuse any typos etc.

[Harlan]

I wonder about the white mist or shadow as well that seem to go hand in hand with popsicles.. Too much carbon dioxide? Too much exposure causing death. It's a bit of a stretch.

Maybe, but it makes far more sense that CO2 was able to put out the torches and fires and things than cold would. It also seems to fit the descriptions of death better than cold does. Cold kills slowly. People have good ways of fighting cold as well. I would expect people being assaulted by cold to huddle together for warmth and burn everything they can. Instead (in the prolouge) the wildlings are found spaced out with one wildling up a tree and they didn't seem to have a fire going either. It's almost as if they all just dropped dead where they were. Almost like CO2 poisoning. We also know that "the cold" has a certain smell about it. It's hard to place, kind like the smell of CO2. Here is a quote from http://www.dakotagas...ide_safety.html

Carbon dioxide is a compound of carbon and oxygen in proportions by weight of about 27% carbon to 73% oxygen. It is a gas at normal atmospheric temperatures and pressures. Carbon dioxide is colorless, odorless, and about 1.5 times as heavy as air. It is a slightly acid gas which is felt by some persons to have a slight pungent odor and biting taste.

I'm sorry but the theory that the the Swords being composed of magiced Air (and by extension the popsicles may be supported by a similar substance) just fits. It is consistent with everything we know and reduces the number of big bads in the north from 3 (popsicles + wights + "Cold") to 2 (popsicles/cold + wights) It explains why you can't find popsicles without the cold. It explains how the cold is capable of killling effectively and why wights are often seen without popsicles being seen. It explains why the blades scream. It explains the lack of footprints. It explains the smell of the cold. What else is left?

Edit: it even fits with the Morrigan as the popsicles would literally be agents of the air

[wolfmaid7]

Maybe, but it makes far more sense that CO2 was able to put out the torches and fires and things than cold would. It also seems to fit the descriptions of death better than cold does. Cold kills slowly. People have good ways of fighting cold as well. I would expect people being assaulted by cold to huddle together for warmth and burn everything they can. Instead (in the prolouge) the wildlings are found spaced out with one wildling up a tree and they didn't seem to have a fire going either. It's almost as if they all just dropped dead where they were. Almost like CO2 poisoning. We also know that "the cold" has a certain smell about it. It's hard to place, kind like the smell of CO2. Here is a quote from http://www.dakotagas...ide_safety.html

Carbon dioxide is a compound of carbon and oxygen in proportions by weight of about 27% carbon to 73% oxygen. It is a gas at normal atmospheric temperatures and pressures. Carbon dioxide is colorless, odorless, and about 1.5 times as heavy as air. It is a slightly acid gas which is felt by some persons to have a slight pungent odor and biting taste.

I'm sorry but the theory that the the Swords being composed of magiced Air (and by extension the popsicles may be supported by a similar substance) just fits. It is consistent with everything we know and reduces the number of big bads in the north from 3 (popsicles + wights + "Cold") to 2 (popsicles/cold + wights) It explains why you can't find popsicles without the cold. It explains how the cold is capable of killling effectively and why wights are often seen without popsicles being seen. It explains why the blades scream. It explains the lack of footprints. It explains the smell of the cold. What else is left?

Edit: it even fits with the Morrigan as the popsicles would literally be agents of the air

Wait a minute i think you got your charatetistcs mixed up CO2 is colorless and odorless as you yourself quoted it is " odorless and colorless . But I must admit i love love the CO2 idea it would be ironic . Also what would be the source it is produced from respiration for one so who or what is expelling it?