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Heresy 73


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Does anyone think the Long Night could have been an extended eclipse, maybe extended by the white walker or the old races together to make way for the white walkers?

Not sure about that. The long night refers to winter and the suggestion is that the long night of legend is an abnormally long winter. Whether it lasted for a generation (30-40 years?) seems like Nan stretching the story for effect.

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Littlefinger, being a very astute guy and can read other people quite well, see’s Tyrion as perhaps the only Lannister that can put the pieces together and is therefore a threat. Tyrion is as clever as Baelish even though he hasn’t had or accepted authority. Cersei is mean spirited, Jaime is duty bound, while Tyrion has a similar cunning to Tywin.



Littlefinger probably rigged the joust that had Loras defeat Jaime so that he could make a wager with Tyrion and offered the dagger. Tyrion is never seen with a weapon. As a matter fact, he goes out of his way to avoid them. If the dagger was taken from him, it would probably take weeks for him to discover it missing.



So, Baelish sends the assassin along with the king’s caravan to Winterfell. Baelish lets the assassin know about the dagger and where Tyrion most likely keeps it. After the attempt on Bran, it was said that because so many horses went with Ned’s party to KL, that the stables had fewer horses and was where the assassins hid. He may not have been targeting Bran as his victim at first, but being an assassin, Bran’s condition made him an easy target. He just needed to get Cat out of the room to do the deed. The assassin was probably supposed to leave the dagger in Bran’s dead body, therefore suspicion would have been placed on someone in the King’s party and would lead directly to Tyrion.

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You make a good point, LynnS, and I don't mean to be critical. Cheers!

I don't take it as criticism. I've picked up more on subsequent rereads. I think in the excitement of the first read and given the amount of information; I missed a lot. I'm rereading again and I'm still picking up stuff that I missed.

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Littlefinger, being a very astute guy and can read other people quite well, see’s Tyrion as perhaps the only Lannister that can put the pieces together and is therefore a threat. Tyrion is as clever as Baelish even though he hasn’t had or accepted authority. Cersei is mean spirited, Jaime is duty bound, while Tyrion has a similar cunning to Tywin.

Littlefinger probably rigged the joust that had Loras defeat Jaime so that he could make a wager with Tyrion and offered the dagger. Tyrion is never seen with a weapon. As a matter fact, he goes out of his way to avoid them. If the dagger was taken from him, it would probably take weeks for him to discover it missing.

So, Baelish sends the assassin along with the king’s caravan to Winterfell. Baelish lets the assassin know about the dagger and where Tyrion most likely keeps it. After the attempt on Bran, it was said that because so many horses went with Ned’s party to KL, that the stables had fewer horses and was where the assassins hid. He may not have been targeting Bran as his victim at first, but being an assassin, Bran’s condition made him an easy target. He just needed to get Cat out of the room to do the deed. The assassin was probably supposed to leave the dagger in Bran’s dead body, therefore suspicion would have been placed on someone in the King’s party and would lead directly to Tyrion.

The question for me is whether or not this was a clumsy plot by Joffrey or a clever plot by Varys and Petyr. I think there was enough time to conspire and put a plan into effect. I still wonder about the strange hypnotic like state of the assassin. I'm guessing he was sent out four days after Bran's fall when it was learned that Bran would live by the master of coin and the master of whisperers. But I'm not sure that it matters after publication of five books and we have been given a broader sense of Petyr and Varys and how they are manipulating everyone. .

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Not sure about that. The long night refers to winter and the suggestion is that the long night of legend is an abnormally long winter. Whether it lasted for a generation (30-40 years?) seems like Nan stretching the story for effect.

I think planetos has a wobbly axis meaning their Arctic Circle seems to move around causing the long seasons (because Westeros moves north and south as the world wobbles) and in the middle of a long winter they get a polar night. In "summer" the Seven Kingdoms move away from the pole which is why we don't here of white nights or midnight sun in the long summer.

I agree a generation is an overestimate but it is also one of those word which just means "a long time".

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I think planetos has a wobbly axis meaning their Arctic Circle seems to move around causing the long seasons (because Westeros moves north and south as the world wobbles) and in the middle of a long winter they get a polar night. In "summer" the Seven Kingdoms move away from the pole which is why we don't here of white nights or midnight sun in the long summer.

I agree a generation is an overestimate but it is also one of those word which just means "a long time".

Oh, I like the wobbly axis. That makes sense. Now can you explain the sun rising in the west if you are situated at the pole? LOL! Would that create a retrograde affect?

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The question for me is whether or not this was a clumsy plot by Joffrey or a clever plot by Varys and Petyr. I think there was enough time to conspire and put a plan into effect. I still wonder about the strange hypnotic like state of the assassin. I'm guessing he was sent out four days after Bran's fall when it was learned that Bran would live by the master of coin and the master of whisperers. But I'm not sure that it matters after publication of five books and we have been given a broader sense of Petyr and Varys and how they are manipulating everyone. .

The only way I can see Jeoff being behind this is for Tyrion slapping him around for not offering his condolence. But would he know about the dagger? Also, it seems out of character for Jeoff to offer mercy to Bran unless he was actually incriminating Tyrion for slapping him around. Does Jeoff have the connections to contact an assassin that has the cunning to hide out for eight days and follow his orders to leave a valyrian dagger behind? The dagger alone would be worth a small fortune, how does Jeoff find such a guy to do this in such a short time?

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Not sure about that. The long night refers to winter and the suggestion is that the long night of legend is an abnormally long winter. Whether it lasted for a generation (30-40 years?) seems like Nan stretching the story for effect.

I've seen people suggest the Long Night could have been or partly been an eclipse, but I'm still not sure what actually caused the "Night".

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I think planetos has a wobbly axis meaning their Arctic Circle seems to move around causing the long seasons (because Westeros moves north and south as the world wobbles) and in the middle of a long winter they get a polar night. In "summer" the Seven Kingdoms move away from the pole which is why we don't here of white nights or midnight sun in the long summer.

I agree a generation is an overestimate but it is also one of those word which just means "a long time".

This is something which comes up from time to time and makes a certain degree of sense. However GRRM himself has denied it and said that the cause of the unbalanced seasons is magical, not natural.

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I've seen people suggest the Long Night could have been or partly been an eclipse, but I'm still not sure what actually caused the "Night".

Regarding what caused the night. A few posts back there has been refrence to 'planetos' having a wobbly axis. Could it be that once every however many thousand years the axis dips to such an extent that westeros ends up like an arctic circle type situation where they cannot see the sun for however many days but because its fantasy and the fact 'planetos' revolved on its acis to such an extent that westeros ended up where the north pole would be on earth that they don't see the sun for years? So the last hero found the COTf and asked if they could with magic bring a asteroid to hit their world to make 'planetos' go back to its original place on its axis.

Maybe the wobble is what causes the extra long winters?

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This is an intriguing line of thought, Capon Breath - though bear with me, because I'm likely to go farther than you intended in your post. While I'm not terribly interested in re-opening the investigation into who put the hit on Bran... I do think we ought to question the motivations of Bloodraven (the three-eyed crow). I recently posted on another thread, in which somebody brought up allusions to the Welsh legend of Bran the Blessed, and - one thought leading to another - it occurred to me that BR and the COTF might have initially been even more interested in removing Starks from Winterfell than they were in employing Bran as greenseer. (Or, if not "more interested," then at least "as interested.") This idea grew out of the notion that in ASOIAF the refrain "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" functions similarly to the Welsh legend that "so long as Bran the Blessed's head remained buried where the White Tower stands, Britain would be safe from invasion" - and that drawing Bran out of the crypts to seek protection elsewhere has its own parallel in the disinterment of Bran the Blessed's noggin.

Anyway, if one is willing to consider that BR/COTF could be adversarial to the realm of men... then removing the last Starks from Winterfell would represent a significant achievement for them on its face. (And this is particularly the case if there is some protective magic at work requiring the presence of a Stark in the ancestral home.) As far as adversarial BR/COTF are concerned, training Bran as a greenseer would be a secondary goal - and really just icing on the cake, considering that the chances of his reaching BR alive were slim to none, anyway.

What I like about your post, Capon Breath, is the suggestion that the greenseer doesn't necessarily have to be Bran. Bloodraven (and Jojen, under BR's influence) swears that Bran is one-in-a-million -- but if we decide not to trust Bloodraven, then we have no other evidence that Bran alone has this potential. For all we know, any of the Stark children (or anybody at all) could become a greenseer. All they need is a little Jojen-paste (or whatever).

As I said above, on the balance of what we've been told I'm inclined, with reservations, to go along with the "official" version, but if there are deeper forces at work I'd be very much inclined to by-pass Baelish and Varys, Illyrio and any other players in the Game of Thrones and look instead to the game of Ice and Fire.

Just because Bran has made it to the Cave of Skulls to take on the role of Bendigeidfran or BrĂ¢n Fendigaidd doesn't necessarily mean he was the one handpicked for the job greenseer from the very beginning. Five Direwolves were sent for the Starks and one for Jon Snow. That's just being sensible and allowing for casualties. Bran was just the first one to make it through the ordeals - and as I noted above, it apparently needed Summer in close proximity to act as a conduit. Sure he could have died coming off that tower, sure the assassin's knife might have done for him, but that might just be a matter of breaking eggs to make an omlette rather than another cunning plan thwarted.

Who benefits and why?

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The only way I can see Jeoff being behind this is for Tyrion slapping him around for not offering his condolence. But would he know about the dagger? Also, it seems out of character for Jeoff to offer mercy to Bran unless he was actually incriminating Tyrion for slapping him around. Does Jeoff have the connections to contact an assassin that has the cunning to hide out for eight days and follow his orders to leave a valyrian dagger behind? The dagger alone would be worth a small fortune, how does Jeoff find such a guy to do this in such a short time?

Indeed, why wouldn't the assassin sell the dagger and use something else? The timeline isn't 8 days. It's about 48 days. They didn't leave for Kingslanding for a fortnight after Bran's fall.

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Who benefits and why?

Yes, it doesn't seem to matter at this point unless someone is attempting to interfere or remove Bran for other reasons. I just have no sense for who would be opposing the three eyed crow. The heart of winter, whatever that means.

"Death flew up at him, screaming."

Patchface:

"Under the sea, you fall up."

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This is something which comes up from time to time and makes a certain degree of sense. However GRRM himself has denied it and said that the cause of the unbalanced seasons is magical, not natural.

I think the wobbly axis is caused by magic. My theory is that when the CofF were fighting the first men they sung the songs of the earth (earth magic) to bring down the hammer of the waters (tsunamis and glacial lake outburst floods). This is a nice way of saying they were magically causing seismic activity and ice cap melts which then screwed up the whole planet for thousands of years. Maybe if they stop singing then planetos will get normal seasons.

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As I said above, on the balance of what we've been told I'm inclined, with reservations, to go along with the "official" version, but if there are deeper forces at work I'd be very much inclined to by-pass Baelish and Varys, Illyrio and any other players in the Game of Thrones and look instead to the game of Ice and Fire.

Just because Bran has made it to the Cave of Skulls to take on the role of Bendigeidfran or BrĂ¢n Fendigaidd doesn't necessarily mean he was the one handpicked for the job greenseer from the very beginning. Five Direwolves were sent for the Starks and one for Jon Snow. That's just being sensible and allowing for casualties. Bran was just the first one to make it through the ordeals - and as I noted above, it apparently needed Summer in close proximity to act as a conduit. Sure he could have died coming off that tower, sure the assassin's knife might have done for him, but that might just be a matter of breaking eggs to make an omlette rather than another cunning plan thwarted.

Who benefits and why?

So why Bran is the only one whom was told "you must live, cause winter is coming"?

Well, nobody we've met until now.

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So why Bran is the only one whom was told "you must live, cause winter is coming"?

Well, nobody we've met until now.

I know men who go to the pub and tell women 'your the most beautiful i ve ever seen' just to sleep with her. When it dosen't work he moves on to the next 'your the most beautiful i ve ver seen' until one goes home with him :)

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Different time zones. I'm guessing. I'm on EST, I think some are on GMT. If you are still planning on doing a reread when your books arrive. I wouldn't mind doing that with you.

Sounds good to me. Im just gonna read however much I happen to read each day though. Definitely not doing it reread thread style. Lol.

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Sounds good to me. Im just gonna read however much I happen to read each day though. Definitely not doing it reread thread style. Lol.

Yep, I'm more for start at the beginning and keep going. I did look at the reread threads and that's not really what I'm looking for. I'm interested in what you might see differently than previous reads.

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Nuh singing the songs would be natural and a part of their day to day. Seeing as magic is neutral and depends on the wielder, what happened seemed more an act of desperation gone wrong.

To much negative emotion behind that act was bound to be screwy.

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