Daenerys's Blackest Sin, Will she Suffer for It?

[The Idiots Lantern]

There is no reason, in the world, why Mirri would give life to those eggs intentionally. The Stallion that Will Mount the World is one thing. A living dragon is something very different. Let alone three of them.

[Florina Laufeyson]

There is no reason, in the world, why Mirri would give life to those eggs intentionally. The Stallion that Will Mount the World is one thing. A living dragon is something very different. Let alone three of them.

Oh no, i never implied Mirri's weirdness and the eggs were intentional on Mirri's part. Mirri likely didnt even know the eggs existed. Theres just a lot of fucking magic going on around then. It was kinda flying all over the place and it happens again during the pyre. Its more of a case of Plot Phlebotinum than anything. Mirri's intent was to put Drogo in a vegetable state and take Rhaego.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Oh no, i never implied Mirri's weirdness and the eggs were intentional on Mirri's part. Mirri likely didnt even know the eggs existed. Theres just a lot of fucking magic going on around then. It was kinda flying all over the place and it happens again during the pyre. Its more of a case of Plot Phlebotinum than anything. Mirri's intent was to put Drogo in a vegetable state and take Rhaego.

I donno, I don't believe that Mirri lied when she told Dany that death (whose she all-but told her in retrospect) was the cost of saving Drogo. This makes me think that the magic started, Rheago started dying, and it was the combination of Dany entering the tent, her son's deformaties, Drogo's death and Mirri's sacrifice that quickened the eggs into hatching.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think, I honestly think, and people can argue with me about it, but people do have a hard time identifying with a character they don't like. Or at least harder than characters they do like.

I'm not entirely on Dany's side when she took the decision, but I can hardly say that I wouldn't have done the same. If someone murdered my entire family and practically condemned me to possibly ending up raped or killed, I wouldn't actually spare them. What people are asking of Dany, are actually accusing her is of doing the same thing Mirri did to Daenerys.

Third, I'd like to use an example that possibly reaches out to more people. I'm assuming that most people here have a personal computer to actually be able to discuss on a forum about a books that the majority of the world population can't actually possess. If you apply to the group just mentioned, congrats, you're on the rich side of the planet. So, you must be aware that in order for you to be here, there are people that aren't. There are people that don't have computers nor have they got the money or even reading the ability to read George's book.

I live in a country named Brazil, which despite having the fifth biggest economy in the world, is also one with a lot of monetary differences between the population. I live in a good neighborhood, and I go to a mall and buy a Lacoste T-shirt. Actually, Lacoste pays 0,15 cents to it's employees per hour in Guatemala. We maintain the system by consuming those products. If you live in a Hippie community and you got you laptop from your family, you're still maintaining the system. The pieces were made in China, were Chinese children slaved to death to produce your laptop. Now, let's say you do good-will, by trying to help the best way you can inside the system you live in. I'm assuming you won't just give away everything you have and live in poverty, because let's face it, if you're here, you haven't.

Let's say you help a homeless person, by giving them food and clothing, and although that doesn't change the system, you are trying. That same person slays your wife or husband and child trying to rob their shirts. When you ask him why he do that, and he answers "Your child would live to maintain the system that made me poor. Your husband did. Tell me now, what it is you have done for me, now that all the rest has gone from you?" What would you do? Would you truly turn to the murderer and say "Hey, you're right. I forgive you for killing my family despite I reaching out for you, when I could have done like the rest of people in my society and just ignored you." or would you rage and scream and cry and even want revenge?

We are all Daenerys in our lives. We are all human and we are allowed human emotions. To expect her to forgive Mirri for what she did is at best naiveté, at worst hypocrisy. I'm not a Dany fan nor a Dany hater. I don't blame them. I blame the system and the society they live in, which is not that different from ours. Of course, one could argue that Dany should have just let them rape her and be done with her, because that's how It works. I'm not entering that discussion.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

When i'll see any of the Stannis cultist admit that burning people and trying to kill children is an evil sin then we can accept that this is a reasonable discussion.

Stannis cultist? I think you need to chill and stop throwing labels like that around. You seem to be taking this too personally.

Do you have any quotes or examples of Stannis fans saying that burning people isn't morally wrong? And can there ever be any discussion about Dany or Stannis where the other one isn't dragged into it? "But so-and-so does it too!" stopped working as an excuse in the 3rd grade.

Because when someone else suggests their favorite character is not goodness incarnate, it is much easier simply to bash flame others. I mean, is it reasonable to ask for a nuanced view of a complex morally grey situation? "Fuck that shit. Those other guys cultists." That's much easier thing to do.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not entirely on Dany's side when she took the decision, but I can hardly say that I wouldn't have done the same. If someone murdered my entire family and practically condemned me to possibly ending up raped or killed, I wouldn't actually spare them. What people are asking of Dany, are actually accusing her is of doing the same thing Mirri did to Daenerys.

I'm going to stop you right here and point out a very important distinction. Mirri did not choose to be in the position she was in. She did not ask for her village to be sacked, or to see people she knew murdered, or to be raped or enslaved. The people Drogo was enslaving at that point were being rounded up to pay for an invasion force that Dany wanted. Mirri told Drogo what to do to keep his wound from becoming infected. Should she be punished because he didn't listen? She told Dany that saving Drogo's life had a steep price and that it might be preferable to let him die. Should she be punished because Dany ignored the warning and told her to do it anyway? Should she be punished because Jorah took Dany into the tent when she explicitly said don't come in the tent?

What galls me the most about Dany burning Mirri is that, in the end, all of it came down to Dany's choices, or Jorah's, or Drogo's. Choose to look the other way because slaves will pay for an army. Choose to ignore medical advice. Choose to engage in blood magic despite being warned that the price might not be worth it. Choose to delude yourself into thinking that a horse is worth a human life. Choose to bring a woman in labor into a tent wherein blood magic is being performed. The person who ended up being punished is the one who was raped, enslaved, told to perform a ritual and whose advice was ignored. The person whose decisions are what led to the whole mess walks away scot-free, with dragons. Ain't life grand?

[Sullen]

Dany fan here.

I also think burning Mirri was a heinous crime (Well, not really a crime since Mirri "belonged" to Dany, but still pretty deplorable), Mirri was in the right.

[Mad Monkey]

The person whose decisions are what led to the whole mess walks away scot-free, with dragons. Ain't life grand?

It's ASOIAF. People get away with crap like that all the time. At least in this case you can't seriously suggest that this entire scenario was part of Daenerys's design -- her main mistake was allowing the use of blood magic in the first place, not realizing how complicated and dangerous such things can be (where would she have learned this though? It's not like she had a maester with a Valyrian steel chain).

Drogo deserves most of the blame in my opinion for preying on the Lamb People and refusing to take care of his injury until it became lethal. Daenerys didn't tell him to raid that village and Mirri Maz Duur did her best to help him with that despite the fact that he is responsible for butchering her entire people -- it would be like Gregor Clegane demanding that Pretty Pia from Harrenhal treat his wounds after he breaks all of the teeth in her mouth. I don't think that she really deserved to be burned alive although I can understand Daenerys's anger. Frankly, Mirri's crime doesn't reach the level of Drogo's enormities; Mirri killed one innocent person, Drogo's killed thousand.

[Sullen]

Daenerys didn't tell him to raid that village

Except she kind of did.

She asked him to take back the Throne, which necessitated acquiring funds, which directly led to raiding and pillaging.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's ASOIAF. People get away with crap like that all the time. At least in this case you can't seriously suggest that this entire scenario was part of Daenerys's design -- her main mistake was allowing the use of blood magic in the first place, not realizing how complicated and dangerous such things can be (where would she have learned this though? It's not like she had a maester with a Valyrian steel chain).

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I had suggested that. Let alone "seriously."

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I'm going to stop you right here and point out a very important distinction. Mirri did not choose to be in the position she was in. She did not ask for her village to be sacked, or to see people she knew murdered, or to be raped or enslaved. The people Drogo was enslaving at point were being rounded up to pay for an invasion force that Dany wanted. Mirri told Drogo what to do to keep his wound from becoming infected. Should she be punished because he didn't listen? She told Dany that saving Drogo's life had a steep price and that it might be preferable to let him die. Should she be punished because Dany ignored the warning and told her to do it anyway? Should she be punished because Jorah took Dany into the tent when she explicitly said don't come in the tent?

What galls me the most about Dany burning Mirri is that, in the end, all of it came down to Dany's choices, or Jorah's, or Drogo's. Choose to look the other way because slaves will pay for an army. Choose to ignore medical advice. Choose to engage in blood magic despite being warned that the price might not be worth it. Choose to delude yourself into thinking that a horse is worth a human life. Choose to bring a woman in labor into a tent wherein blood magic is being performed. The person who ended up being punished is the one who was raped, enslaved, told to perform a ritual and whose advice was ignored. The person whose decisions are what led to the whole mess walks away scot-free, with dragons. Ain't life grand?

Read the rest. Mirri did made a choice though, she chose to kill Drogo. We don't know why he died, but besides that, she does make a point that sounds like she killed him. That's besides the choices made by Dany, Jorah and Drogo. We always have a choice. And nobody chooses to be poor or rich and to be enslaved or not to be. If we did, do you think Dany would have chosen to be married to Khal Drogo and live in exile? I'm not placing the blame on Mirri, and I'm not placing on Dany. I maintain that the system they lived in is the responsible. And as to the wound and all, that wasn't actually sound medical advice. Mirri couldn't be trust-worthy, considering her origins. You're saying that if for example, a Lannister is sick and the only doctor around is a Stark, with sound medical advice, would he listen? They are supposed to be enemies. We are all indirectly responsible for poverty in the world. Like Dany was when she asked for the Throne. She only later realized that that meant other people would have to suffer in order for her to obtain it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Read the rest. Mirri did made a choice though, she chose to kill Drogo.

Again, I'm going to stop you here. Did Mirri put a gun to Drogo's head and tell him to not use the poultice and go out binge drinking? Because I'm pretty damn sure he made that choice all on his own. I guess I just have no clue where you're getting the "Mirri killed Drogo" thing. Mirri is not responsible for the choices he makes.

Like Dany was when she asked for the Throne. She only later realized that that meant other people would have to suffer in order for her to obtain it.

And decided it was still worth it.

[Mad Monkey]

Except she kind of did.

She asked him to take back the Throne, which necessitated acquiring funds, which directly led to raiding and pillaging.

Fair enough. I still think it's kind of a stretch, and anyway I was still thinking that Drogo was an adult who had the power to make his own decisions and also to decide how he would go about making these decisions. The Dothraki have been seen generating operating funds by laying siege to cities in order to extract ransoms. He could have chosen to do that here but he decided instead to raid the Lamb Men village. That was his choice, not Daenerys's. I don't remember this part of the books too well but was there even a scene where Drogo consults Daenerys on this issue?

You're saying that if for example, a Lannister is sick and the only doctor around is a Stark, with sound medical advice, would he listen? They are supposed to be enemies.

Drogo had a good reason not to trust Mirri, but that again was his choice. Mirri was basically a slave in Daenerys's custody; she couldn't force the Khal to do anything he didn't want to. She made him a poultice and told him to use it and he didn't, so his wound got worse. Hell, if I remember it right, the only reason he took it off was because it was uncomfortable -- he wasn't concerned about Mirri putting a curse on him or anything, he just hated how the damn thing felt. Fair enough, that's his choice, but that's not something Mirri could control unless we want her to invent local anesthetics too!

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Again, I'm going to stop you here. Did Mirri put a gun to Drogo's head and tell him to not use the poultice and go out binge drinking? Because I'm pretty damn sure he made that choice all on his own. I guess I just have no clue where you're getting the "Mirri killed Drogo" thing. Mirri is not responsible for the choices he makes.

And decided it was still worth it.

Again, I'm going to stop you here. Did Mirri put a gun to Drogo's head and tell him to not use the poultice and go out binge drinking? Because I'm pretty damn sure he made that choice all on his own. I guess I just have no clue where you're getting the "Mirri killed Drogo" thing. Mirri is not responsible for the choices he makes.

And decided it was still worth it.

We don't know her role in his death, but we do know that she at least tricked Daenerys into thinking she could bring him back. That's what I meant by killed. And if you're using your own computer, which I guess you are, you decided it was still worth it, despite chinese children only getting 0,15 cents an hour to build it.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Drogo had a good reason not to trust Mirri, but that again was his choice. Mirri was basically a slave in Daenerys's custody; she couldn't force the Khal to do anything he didn't want to. She made him a poultice and told him to use it and he didn't, so his wound got worse. Hell, if I remember it right, the only reason he took it off was because it was uncomfortable -- he wasn't concerned about Mirri putting a curse on him or anything, he just hated how the damn thing felt. Fair enough, that's his choice, but that's not something Mirri could control unless we want her to invent local anesthetics too!

Agree with you. Completely Drogo's choice, and his reason to die. He didn't took her medication, therefore, we can't know if It would make him feel better or worse.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We don't know her role in his death, but we do know that she at least tricked Daenerys into thinking she could bring him back. That's what I meant by killed.

She told Dany the risks, said it would be a very steep price and that it'd be better to let him die, and Dany said no, try the blood magic. Why are you blaming Mirri for other people's choices? She didn't force Drogo to ignore her advice, and she didn't force Dany to undertake the blood magic. What is it about Dany and Drogo that makes you not want to hold them accountable?

And if you're using your own computer, which I guess you are, you decided it was still worth it, despite chinese children only getting 0,15 cents an hour to build it.

And this has what to do with anything?

[RoamingRonin]

Read the rest. Mirri did made a choice though, she chose to kill Drogo.

I think it's being argued that Mirri did her absolute best to help Drogo yet he chose to ignore her medical advice and died from his wounds. Which is ridiculous.

Why would she step forward in the first place if she didn't have some diabolical scheme in place? Mirri manipulated the situation to her advantage. Dany trusted the wrong individual. That's painfully obvious. There's no one person at fault here.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it's being argued that Mirri did her absolute best to help Drogo yet he chose to ignore her medical advice and died from his wounds. Which is ridiculous.

Why would she step forward in the first place if she didn't have some diabolical scheme in place? Mirri manipulated the situation to her advantage. Dany trusted the wrong individual. That's painfully obvious. There's no one person at fault here.

If you're a slave who gives the khal life-saving advice, that can be a decent bargaining chip down the line. I'd be more inclined to buy that MMD "killed Drogo" if he had followed her advice and had gotten, I don't know, poisoned or something. But it's pretty clear that it's ignoring it that really makes the wound worse. What, was she running reverse psychology on him?

[SkaggCannibal]

By that logic, you can't blame Mirri for trying to destroy the people who murdered everyone she loved and cared about because the warlord's wife thought she was doing a good thing by stopping her third rape of the day by making her her personal slave.

It's true I don't blame her, I actually give her respect points to take that kind of revenge on the people that murdered/raped/destroyed her life. It was sweet revenge. The punishment was according to it.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

And this has what to do with anything?

You're making the same choice she made. Yet, you say she was in the wrong to do it. Dany chose to conquer Westeros even if It meant people would be enslaved in order to get it. The same choice, different situations.

She told Dany the risks, said it would be a very steep price and that it'd be better to let him die, and Dany said no, try the blood magic. Why are you blaming Mirri for other people's choices? She didn't force Drogo to ignore her advice, and she didn't force Dany to undertake the blood magic. What is it about Dany and Drogo that makes you not want to hold them accountable?

Yet she did tricked Dany into thinking It could work. That's her choice. Yet she forgot to mention It would cost Dany's son's life. That's her choice. Oh, she also forgot to say that he would return a vegetable. Holding important information is not a choice? There's nothing about Dany and Drogo, I dislike Drogo and I used to like Dany. Yet, that doesn't make me agree with you.