Mycella is good and sweet, Tommen is the same...how did Joffrey turn into such a hellhound?

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I don't think inbreeding has anything to do with it.

His killing of the cat points out simply, he is a psychopath. His mother always siding with him didn't help and I believe Robert, at least subconciously knew Joff wasn't his. Which may be the reason for lack of spending time with him, but the other two children seem fine, perfectly fine and normal.

[Blueberry Stark]

Cersei has a hell of a personality disorder and she is raising him more or less alone in a loveless marriage. I think she has so sheltered him from any normal contact with others while filling him with garbage that he has a giant hole where a functioning personality should be and the sad thing is, he knows it.

I think its a little odd the other two have got off so scot free, but I suppose with Joffrey getting all the attention they had a little space to develop.

I agree. Cersei seems to have narcissistic personality disorder, which makes her an interesting character to read about, but a terrible person to have as a mother.

Like someone stated above, genetics play a big part in whether someone becomes a sociopath or not, the notion that 'bad mothers create psychopaths' is a bit dated and unfortunate. That said bad parenting can certainly make anything that is already in someone's brain a lot worse, and Joffrey had pretty much the worst parents I can imagine. If anything it probably helped Tommen and Myrcella that they were paid less attention to than Joff.

In the world of GRRM genetics it seems established that the Targaryen madness came from their inbreeding, although whether the inbreeding itself created the madness, or whether there was some genetic predisposition to it that never left the family because the all just bred with each other, I don't know. In the TV series, though, Cersei herself wonders whether Joffrey might be 'the price she has to pay' for what she did.

At the end of the day though, it is probably, again, as stated above, mostly down to GRRM and the fact that it makes for an interesting character who drives the story in an interesting way.

Worst parents imaginable is an exaggeration; Robert did physically abuse Joffrey on at least one occasion, but he wasn't regularly beaten, sexually abused, or neglected. He had awful parents, but there are much worse parents out there (think of poor Sam, for one).

[Ludd]

Castellan

If you understood simple genetics then it would NOT be odd at all.

If you assume (reasonably) that sociopaths have a recessive gene then you need two doses of the gene.

Now assuming Cersai neither Cersai nor Jaime are true sociopaths but each have the recessive gene, then just one in four of their kids would be true sociopaths (statistically)

If it was felt that cersai was also sociopathic ie had a double dose of the gene then statistically you would expect one in every two Jand C kids to be sociopaths.

By contrast the Targ "madness" gene behaves like a dominant gene (perhaps with a recessive trigger). In this case 50% of kids would be crazy over time. Where there is inbreeding and both parents have the crazy gene then out of 4 kids you would expect one kid to be stark staring bonkers, two to be just mad and one to be perfectly sane.

[Blueberry Stark]

Seriously, Martin is not representing, or trying to represent, real world genetics in the story, so the genetics lessons are coming off as pedantic and unnecessary.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

Seriously, Martin is not representing, or trying to represent, real world genetics in the story, so the genetics lessons are coming off as pedantic and unnecessary.

I agree! Joff was mad and like he was, because GRRM wanted him like that! If his brother and sister were like it also, it wouldn't be as horrid.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Cersei always spoiled him more than the other two. And I think he was victim of the incest problems, like, there were mad Targaryens, he was mas as well, it shows he is a psycho and sadist. Tommen and Myrcella are luckier.

[Samsaptakas]

Joffery being evil was a plot necessity: to make starks and Tyrion sympathetic in comparison.

[KingofSothoryos]

I don't think we can discount the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" adage, because Joffrey grew up knowing that he was heir to the throne. I can't imagine what that would do to a teenage mind, knowing that you can have people killed, tortured, raped and destituted without any check on your actions. Myrcella and Tommen would have always known, unless Joffrey dies before having a child, that they wouldn't sit the throne in their own right, so they probably would have always known some boundaries.

Also, Tommen and Myrcella grew up with Joffrey, so I don't doubt that they had been bullied and put down their whole lives, so they would develop pleasing personalities in hopes that by being nice to Joffrey, he'd treat them better. Much like Danaerys and Visaerys and not waking the dragon. I can easily see Joffrey sneaking into Tommen's room with a knife like Aerion did to Egg!

Lastly, they are too young to have developed their personality so we have to wait and see. Can you imagine if Tommen grows into a man and keeps the throne and starts to hear some of the rumors about his family. He's a product of incest, mother plotted to kill your father, uncle killed your brother and grandfather, same uncle kidnapped you and held you hostage and sent your sister away, other uncle/possible father killed the last king, other uncle killed his brother in a fight for your throne and still fighting for it, mother had to walk naked in the streets for admitting incest with her cousin and plotting to have your wife executed by lying and saying she cheated on you? Either Tommen will be the most paranoid king ever or he'll abdicate and take the black just to put it all behind him!

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Child+Cersei's attention+Robert's lack thereof+genetics= FUCKING ASSHOLE

[Mrs_Darcy]

I don't think we can discount the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" adage, because Joffrey grew up knowing that he was heir to the throne. I can't imagine what that would do to a teenage mind, knowing that you can have people killed, tortured, raped and destituted without any check on your actions. Myrcella and Tommen would have always known, unless Joffrey dies before having a child, that they wouldn't sit the throne in their own right, so they probably would have always known some boundaries.

Also, Tommen and Myrcella grew up with Joffrey, so I don't doubt that they had been bullied and put down their whole lives, so they would develop pleasing personalities in hopes that by being nice to Joffrey, he'd treat them better. Much like Danaerys and Visaerys and not waking the dragon. I can easily see Joffrey sneaking into Tommen's room with a knife like Aerion did to Egg!

Lastly, they are too young to have developed their personality so we have to wait and see. Can you imagine if Tommen grows into a man and keeps the throne and starts to hear some of the rumors about his family. He's a product of incest, mother plotted to kill your father, uncle killed your brother and grandfather, same uncle kidnapped you and held you hostage and sent your sister away, other uncle/possible father killed the last king, other uncle killed his brother in a fight for your throne and still fighting for it, mother had to walk naked in the streets for admitting incest with her cousin and plotting to have your wife executed by lying and saying she cheated on you? Either Tommen will be the most paranoid king ever or he'll abdicate and take the black just to put it all behind him!

I think, even this aspect is heavily influenced by Cersei's education of Joffrey. We hear Ned telling Robb, that being a ruler is a great responsability, that he is responsible for the well-being of every human being in his dominion and that being a ruler is not about being able to do what you want but what is best for your people. (For instance the fact that in the North the ruler does his own executions shows, that as a ruler you just cannot "outsource" things, that you do not like to other people)

For Cersei, ruling seems to be about having absolute power and being able to do what you want. (Remember the Cersei POVs in AFFC, where she thinks that the role of Queen Regent is some kind of reward for her. )

If Joffrey had for instance been raised by Ned, he would have mainly heard about the great responsability for his people, so this aspect is probably another aspect of Cersei's failings as a mother.

[WeaselPie]

Joff is one of the few "black or white" characters in the entire series. Most are shades of grey, and many go through redemption phases, or become more bitter/heartless etc.

Joff is literally a bad egg. Spoiled, undisciplined, sadistic, raised by a narcissistic mother and distant father, surrounded by sycophants, and a psychopath. I can't think of one scene where Joff is at all a sympathetic or redeeming character. Possibly when Robert dies, but that scene seemed a bit forced on the show.

The only other character that might compare is Ramsay, but we know a bit more about he went through during his childhood.

I also can't think of a single character who is absolutely good, as much as Joff was absolutely evil.

Tommen does seem like a good kid, and so does Myrcella so far, but their stories aren't over by far. When and if they find out the truth about Cersei and Jaime, would be interesting to see how they react.

[Golden Lion]

He's a child of two generations of incest, he demonstrated classic psychopathic traits as a child (killing and gutting a pregnant cat) That's why he's blood thirsty and fucking crazy.

His being spoiled is from Cersei compensating for how abusive and distant Robert was as a father.

We've never had any indication Robert was abusive or stand offish with the other two children, so they were raised relatively normal.

[Light a wight tonight]

Seriously, Martin is not representing, or trying to represent, real world genetics in the story, so the genetics lessons are coming off as pedantic and unnecessary.

I'd say that a counter to "Joff was bad because he's a child of incest" is necessary.

[The Witch King of Braavos]

I don't think we can discount the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" adage, because Joffrey grew up knowing that he was heir to the throne. I can't imagine what that would do to a teenage mind, knowing that you can have people killed, tortured, raped and destituted without any check on your actions. Myrcella and Tommen would have always known, unless Joffrey dies before having a child, that they wouldn't sit the throne in their own right, so they probably would have always known some boundaries.

Also, Tommen and Myrcella grew up with Joffrey, so I don't doubt that they had been bullied and put down their whole lives, so they would develop pleasing personalities in hopes that by being nice to Joffrey, he'd treat them better. Much like Danaerys and Visaerys and not waking the dragon. I can easily see Joffrey sneaking into Tommen's room with a knife like Aerion did to Egg!

Lastly, they are too young to have developed their personality so we have to wait and see. Can you imagine if Tommen grows into a man and keeps the throne and starts to hear some of the rumors about his family. He's a product of incest, mother plotted to kill your father, uncle killed your brother and grandfather, same uncle kidnapped you and held you hostage and sent your sister away, other uncle/possible father killed the last king, other uncle killed his brother in a fight for your throne and still fighting for it, mother had to walk naked in the streets for admitting incest with her cousin and plotting to have your wife executed by lying and saying she cheated on you? Either Tommen will be the most paranoid king ever or he'll abdicate and take the black just to put it all behind him!

When you put it like that, you really realise how messed up this family is...

[Blueberry Stark]

I'd say that a counter to "Joff was bad because he's a child of incest" is necessary.

This was the post to which I was referring. Nothing necessary here, imo.

Castellan

If you understood simple genetics then it would NOT be odd at all.

If you assume (reasonably) that sociopaths have a recessive gene then you need two doses of the gene.

Now assuming Cersai neither Cersai nor Jaime are true sociopaths but each have the recessive gene, then just one in four of their kids would be true sociopaths (statistically)

If it was felt that cersai was also sociopathic ie had a double dose of the gene then statistically you would expect one in every two Jand C kids to be sociopaths.

By contrast the Targ "madness" gene behaves like a dominant gene (perhaps with a recessive trigger). In this case 50% of kids would be crazy over time. Where there is inbreeding and both parents have the crazy gene then out of 4 kids you would expect one kid to be stark staring bonkers, two to be just mad and one to be perfectly sane.

[Fire Eater]

Cersei paid more attention to Joffrey since he was her ticket to power, and first in line to the throne. She sought to make Joffrey an extension of herself while Tommen and Myrcella received less attention from her allowing them to turn out alright.

[aceluby]

Because of Cersei, she's not nearly as involved the child rearing aspect as she was with Joff.

[Little Lark]

I feel like Robert isn't getting enough credit on here for his contributions, or even lack thereof, to Joffrey's personality.

We've accounted for the roles of Cersei and genetics, but not so much for the severe lack of a father figure in the boy's life. The cat incident has been cited a couple of times, and I do think that it was telling, but I don't think it represents the entirety of the Robert-Joff relationship. We know, based on his comments to Ned in AGoT, that Robert is troubled and a little disturbed by his son's behavior but we also know that he generally chooses not to deal with Joffrey's violent tendencies. In fact, he more often than not turns a blind eye to them. Other than the cat incident, when do we even hear of Robert punishing his son? There is barely any evidence that Robert acknowledges Joffrey's existence on a regular basis.

Let's take a look at the cat incident again, but keeping in mind Joffrey's motivation. Why would a small boy brutally kill a helpless animal? I think most of us would have a difficult time answering that, but whether or not Joffrey actually meant to kill the cat or cause her any pain, we do know what he was after. The boy's goal was apparently to get to the kittens. Like as not, he had some sort of grisly fascination with the whole process, but we can't actually know much of what he was thinking except that he wanted his father's attention. How do we know that? Because the first thing that Joffrey does is show the kittens to Robert.

I think a lot of Joffrey's problem stems from the fact that he has been starved for male affection his entire life. Robert certainly doesn't seem to have an emotional connection to the boy and Jaime has been forbidden by Cersei from developing close bonds with any of the children. At one point in AFfC, Cersei claims that Joffrey's attachment to the Hound was due to his regard for Sandor as a sort of father figure. Well, we never see Sandor Clegane show any sort of love for Joffrey. If anything, Sandor has more a sense of duty to Joff than any real emotional attachment, and even that isn't enough to make him face the flames on the Blackwater in ACoK. So, basically, Joffrey has grown up with an overly indulgent mother as sole prominent adult influence in his life.

So while I do think that Cersei and a genetic predisposition have played a role in Joffrey's character development, I think the fact that he was denied the male affection that he so badly wanted has affected him as well. Of course, Cersei herself may be partly to blame for this; even now she pushes Tommen away from his new role model Ser Loras.

[Valandui]

Someone had a post not too long ago about how maybe we shouldn't assume that Myrcella is actually as sweet and good as we're told. I wish I could find it but I'm on my phone at the moment.

ETA: Apparently it was a Tze post from a while back. I can't find it but I found someone quoting it.

[Jaime4Brienne]

I just looked up the kitten incident online. Robert knocked out two of his baby teeth when Joffrey brought him one of the kittens. My son started losing his baby teeth at six (which is the average age) and lost his front teeth first. This means Joffrey was probably six or under when this incident happened. It could be argued that he didn't understand that cutting the kittens out of the cat would hurt the cat (although how he managed to hold down a struggling, desperate cat to cut the kittens out I don't know) I think my son at a lot younger age understood that even something like pulling the cats tail would hurt it...but if Joffrey wasn't told that, or told to stop when he hurt an animal....

I think he really, really, REALLY wanted his father's (as far as he knew) attention.