Roose bolton - How can he survive?

[alienarea]

It's all about supplies, isn't it?

From Roose's point of view the Freys and the Manderlys should be dealing with Stannis. With the main forces of Manderly outside of Winterfell, And he sends out Ramsay after those for good measuer. Then, Roose and his loyal troops could capture the food supplies Manderly brought with him for his troops. He has enough troops left to deal with the Manderlys remaining inside of Winterfell and if he keeps the gates closed the supplies should last for a while. And without plot armor, Stannis would either be killed, or freeze to death, or starve before knocking at Winterfell's gates.

[Jon of the Dead]

What would be the point of Roose's arc if he merely skulked back to the Dreadfort?

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

Roose has been playing his game for a while.

Outside of Martin completing his Stark destruction and having them die out, Roose has to go.

There's no way a story ends with Roose and the Starks coexisting.

Too much blood has been spilled for that, and frankly the very idea that he'd be able to merely retire to the Dreadfort after his son slaughtered the castellan of Winterfell and put the capital of the north to the torch, after forcibly marrying a northern highborn widow and starving her until she ate her own fingers, while Roose himself sent three thousand men to die for nothing, followed by him gutting his king is horribly unrealistic and honestly, stupid.

We know Robb was at war with the Lannisters, went to the Twins with his army, he died as well as his men, yet Bolton stepped out the ash holding the rule of the north endorsed by the very people their king was in a bitter war with.

Did the northern lords see the tape of the wedding? No, but connecting the dots doesn't require one to be LF or Varys.

It would make all Roose has done redundant if losing doesn't exact a high price.

:agree:

Roose lost the game when he lost (f)Arya, that was the only thing keeping the northmen in line. Plus, now Stannis knows

that the Karstarks were going to betray him

thanks to Theon. And Winterfell is teeming with Stark loyalists, not to mention the Hooded Man.

I know lots of people hate Mel, but I gotta give her credit for taking down the Roose. Her plan to send Mance and the spearwives was all kinds of right.

[butterbumps!]

Stannis would charge Roose with treason for fighting the true King of Westeros.

I'm not sure about that. Roose hasn't actually raised arms against Stannis. The OP kind of has the right of it in that Roose fought the Lannisters, and then brought down another "false" king.

And it's not his men he sends out-- it's the Freys and Manderlys. Roose isn't actually in violation of any laws, especially not according to Stannis' perspective which is that the Lannisters and Robb are both false. And it's not his own making making the assault. He's pretty insulated.

What would be the point of Roose's arc if he merely skulked back to the Dreadfort?

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

Roose has been playing his game for a while.

Outside of Martin completing his Stark destruction and having them die out, Roose has to go.

There's no way a story ends with Roose and the Starks coexisting.

Too much blood has been spilled for that, and frankly the very idea that he'd be able to merely retire to the Dreadfort after his son slaughtered the castellan of Winterfell and put the capital of the north to the torch, after forcibly marrying a northern highborn widow and starving her until she ate her own fingers, while Roose himself sent three thousand men to die for nothing, followed by him gutting his king is horribly unrealistic and honestly, stupid.

We know Robb was at war with the Lannisters, went to the Twins with his army, he died as well as his men, yet Bolton stepped out the ash holding the rule of the north endorsed by the very people their king was in a bitter war with.

Did the northern lords see the tape of the wedding? No, but connecting the dots doesn't require one to be LF or Varys.

It would make all Roose has done redundant if losing doesn't exact a high price.

I'm not talking about Roose finishing his arc as Lord of the Dreadfort. I'm pointing out that Roose is not the one who's actually overreached yet. He's never held himself as Lord of anything but the Dreadfort. He's not pressing a claim for Winterfell or anything like that. As in, there's nothing to defeat or challenge, no crime that's been committed by Roose yet.

With the exception of killing Robb, Roose's hands are rather clean. He can make a case that he was doing the best for the North by staunching Robb's continued bleeding of resources in a war that was completely lost (and it was post Blackwater), as well as sell his subsequent actions as merely trying to maintain Northern control of the North (while not personally claiming Winterfell) to thwart Lannister infiltration via Tyrion's heir with Sansa. And something tells me the Northmen would rather see a Bolton in charge than a Lannister and might be slightly grateful for that.

For as many families cut down at the RW, there are as many families Roose has kept out of it.

I think it's also worth mentioning that this is hardly the first time a Bolton's killed a KitN or a Lord of Winterfell. It's an old Bolton habit to wear Stark skins, and despite multiple rebellions by the Boltons, they were never extinguished even when allied houses like the Greystarks were Castamered.

I don't think Roose will "retreat" to the Dreadfort and just end his arc as the quiet lord there. I think the fact that he hasn't tried to reach beyond that in any formal capacity gives him something of a shield and a degree of "innocence" with regard to whether Stannis or anyone else can really inflict punishment on him.

[Tywin Manderly]

I'm not sure about that. Roose hasn't actually raised arms against Stannis. The OP kind of has the right of it in that Roose fought the Lannisters, and then brought down another "false" king.

And it's not his men he sends out-- it's the Freys and Manderlys. Roose isn't actually in violation of any laws, especially not according to Stannis' perspective which is that the Lannisters and Robb are both false. And it's not his own making making the assault. He's pretty insulated.

Roose is the Warden of the North of the false king. He therefore gives the orders to attack Stannis and his army and that is treason.

[butterbumps!]

Roose is the Warden of the North of the false king. He therefore gives the orders to attack Stannis and his army and that is treason.

And sends out the 2 parties guaranteed to attack each other, likely before either gets to Stannis, and whom Stannis also has a strong desire to kill. And should Stannis survive and make an inquiry to Roose, he can say that these factions threatened to destroy the peace in Winterfell and had no choice but to turn them out.

I don't think Roose is actually resting on his wardenship received from the Lannisters. He knows fully well that the Lannisters had intended to replace whoever was sitting in Winterfell once Sansa produced an heir. He's as much a "victim" of Tywin's false rewards as anyone else.

[Consigliere]

And sends out the 2 parties guaranteed to attack each other, likely before either gets to Stannis, and whom Stannis also has a strong desire to kill. And should Stannis survive and make an inquiry to Roose, he can say that these factions threatened to destroy the peace in Winterfell and had no choice but to turn them out.

I don't think Roose is actually resting on his wardenship received from the Lannisters. He knows fully well that the Lannisters had intended to replace whoever was sitting in Winterfell once Sansa produced an heir. He's as much a "victim" of Tywin's false rewards as anyone else.

Roose has certainly insulated himself pretty well and has a reasonable explanation to whatever charges are directed at him. I still think that the question of what to do with Roose will be taken out of Stannis' hands and his fate will ultimately be decided by the northern lords. IMO, the northmen are simply using Stannis as a means to an end.

[The Frosted King]

I'm not sure about that. Roose hasn't actually raised arms against Stannis. The OP kind of has the right of it in that Roose fought the Lannisters, and then brought down another "false" king.

And it's not his men he sends out-- it's the Freys and Manderlys. Roose isn't actually in violation of any laws, especially not according to Stannis' perspective which is that the Lannisters and Robb are both false. And it's not his own making making the assault. He's pretty insulated.

I'm not talking about Roose finishing his arc as Lord of the Dreadfort. I'm pointing out that Roose is not the one who's actually overreached yet. He's never held himself as Lord of anything but the Dreadfort. He's not pressing a claim for Winterfell or anything like that. As in, there's nothing to defeat or challenge, no crime that's been committed by Roose yet.

With the exception of killing Robb, Roose's hands are rather clean. He can make a case that he was doing the best for the North by staunching Robb's continued bleeding of resources in a war that was completely lost (and it was post Blackwater), as well as sell his subsequent actions as merely trying to maintain Northern control of the North (while not personally claiming Winterfell) to thwart Lannister infiltration via Tyrion's heir with Sansa. And something tells me the Northmen would rather see a Bolton in charge than a Lannister and might be slightly grateful for that.

For as many families cut down at the RW, there are as many families Roose has kept out of it.

I think it's also worth mentioning that this is hardly the first time a Bolton's killed a KitN or a Lord of Winterfell. It's an old Bolton habit to wear Stark skins, and despite multiple rebellions by the Boltons, they were never extinguished even when allied houses like the Greystarks were Castamered.

I don't think Roose will "retreat" to the Dreadfort and just end his arc as the quiet lord there. I think the fact that he hasn't tried to reach beyond that in any formal capacity gives him something of a shield and a degree of "innocence" with regard to whether Stannis or anyone else can really inflict punishment on him.

I think somewhere along the way, you bumped your head again Butter.

What books are you reading?

He's saved what families?

The Manderlys? Nope.

The Mormonts? Nope.

The Umbers? Nope.

The Flints? Nope.

The Hornwoods? Nope.

The Glovers? Nope.

The Tallharts? Nope.

The Karstarks? Yeah, kinda but their lady has made peace with Winterfell. The Karstarks he did make ally with are in chains, and soon to be killed. A useless alliance, that will likely bear no fruit.

The Dustins? Ok.

The Ryswells? Granted.

Three houses in on the secret betrayal doesn't mean squat against the 8 betrayed.

He made enemies of the most powerful house in the north not named Stark in the Manderlys, and most of the other prominent northern houses.

The Dustins and Ryswells alone don't tip the balance when most of the northern nobility hate him.

And the Boltons even being alive after their last rebellion is silly, for all Martins prose of "hard men for a hard land", etc.

They've lasted thus far due to requirements of the plot, but i doubt any prior Bolton has dirtied their hands as much as Roose/Ramsay have.

I can't see them lasting past the end of the story.

If they do, then honestly the Starks deserve the betrayal and usurping that goes hand in hand with the Bolton name.

Bolton being the norths Lannister lackey is treason enough to a man like Stannis.

He would've fought the Starks, if it came to it, but he HATES the Lannisters.

And let Roose try to present his slaying of his King as staunching the wounds of a defeated campaign.

Stannis would realize that had he had men as untrustworthy as Roose in his host, he himself might've died from a sword in the chest.

That would be the worst thing Roose could do.

Fact of the matter is, the Boltons add nothing to the north.

They're feared/mistrusted/disliked as a house, and cruelty is entwined with their history.

They're not as wealthy as the Manderlys, as true or entrenched in honor as the Umbers or Karstarks.

They're just there as a ruthlessly ambitious house that wants the number one spot.

They're honestly that bit of rot in a hard skinned apple.

Why wouldn't Stannis just kill the two guilty as sin people who're all thats left, and give the lands/castle to another more trustworthy noble?

The solution is so easy, why wouldn't he?

Who in the north is going to lament the loss of Roose/Ramsay? Or Fat Walda Bolton?

[The Frosted King]

Roose has certainly insulated himself pretty well and has a reasonable explanation to whatever charges are directed at him. I still think that the question of what to do with Roose will be taken out of Stannis' hands and his fate will ultimately be decided by the northern lords. IMO, the northmen are simply using Stannis as a means to an end.

Why did you conspire with Walder Frey to kill your king, and other northern and riverlands nobles after a wedding, after these men gave their weapons away for safekeeping to sit down and eat, after sharing salt?

Why did you conspire to lay claim to Winterfell with a false Arya Stark?

Why did you allow your bastard son to terrorize her and have his dogs mount her?

Why did you make cause with such a faithless House as the Freys, in light of the horrible Red Wedding?

Why did you bend the knee to the Lannister regime, when its been shared that their claim is a false one built upon lies of incest and murder?

Answer those charges in a way that would satisfy Stannis Roose.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm not sure about that. Roose hasn't actually raised arms against Stannis. The OP kind of has the right of it in that Roose fought the Lannisters, and then brought down another "false" king.

There is a problem with that - Roose owed his allegiance to the Starks of Winterfell as Lords Paramount. When they rebelled, he could either stay true to them and plead loyalty to his direct Lord, or he could stay true to the rightful King - Stannis. But he chose the third way, the only way he's guilty on both charges.

And the Boltons even being alive after their last rebellion is silly, for all Martins prose of "hard men for a hard land", etc.

They've lasted thus far due to requirements of the plot, but i doubt any prior Bolton has dirtied their hands as much as Roose/Ramsay have.

I can't see them lasting past the end of the story.

If they do, then honestly the Starks deserve the betrayal and usurping that goes hand in hand with the Bolton name.

Bolton being the norths Lannister lackey is treason enough to a man like Stannis.

He would've fought the Starks, if it came to it, but he HATES the Lannisters.

It's likely that the main line was killed each time in these old rebellions, with some distant cousins switching sides in time and inheriting.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't see why the Bolton line surviving is so implausible. In the real middle ages rebels often lost lands, and those directly involved might be executed, but children weren't routinely butchered, so they could keep the line alive or inherit a diminished lordship in some circumstances.

[Mithras]

Roose is no fool and he knows his time in Winterfell is up. So he will retreat to Dreadfort with his main host. He will leave Ramsay behind with a rather small force. Ramsay and all his men will be annihilated when Jon returnes to make the Batlle of Long Lake 2.0. After that i expect the Dreadfort will be sieged once and for all by the combined northern forces under Stark leadership and House Bolton will be no more. However, they simply dont have the men or resources to take Dreadfort and they cannot wait to starve them out (which took 2 years last time). The giants coming with Rickon may play a part in the siege.to finish the job without losing much time.

[The Frosted King]

I don't see why the Bolton line surviving is so implausible. In the real middle ages rebels often lost lands, and those directly involved might be executed, but children weren't routinely butchered, so they could keep the line alive or inherit a diminished lordship in some circumstances.

For all of Martin prattling on about old Starks being hard men for hard times?

Why would they wipe out a familial cadet branch Greystarks, and allow an age old enemy like the Boltons to endure?

In a place like the north, loyalty MUST be enforced, as the lands resources are too hard fought to justify wasting on war.

A rebellion once or twice is understandable, but the continued wasting of resources in the north to rein in an unruly house is untenable.

They should've been eradicated, children smothered and women hung.

The castle goes to a cadet/faithful noble second/third son/cousin/uncle and its redone partially, as a testament to what happens when you reach too far.

The Gardeners would've wiped out the Manderlys, the Lannisters did wipe out the Reynes and Tarbecks.

The point of this thread is asking how Roose can survive, and my answer is he can't, period.

No house has likely earned it as much as the Boltons, so the people pontificating as if Roose merely stole a cookie from the Stark pantry is slightly maddening, as well as disturbing.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't know what their reasons were, because I don't know anything about those situations. But a family that has rebelled a number of times surviving isn't unusual in terms of the real middle ages. Or, the Starks might have tried once (we know they won in a siege of the DF one time) but a Bolton heir might have escaped and reclaimed the lands at a time when no response could be arranged from Winterfell. Anything (or, a lot, anyway) is possible when you don't know the facts.

[Tywin Manderly]

And sends out the 2 parties guaranteed to attack each other, likely before either gets to Stannis, and whom Stannis also has a strong desire to kill. And should Stannis survive and make an inquiry to Roose, he can say that these factions threatened to destroy the peace in Winterfell and had no choice but to turn them out.

That doesn't make his actions as henchman of the false king any less treasonous towards Stannis.

I don't think Roose is actually resting on his wardenship received from the Lannisters. He knows fully well that the Lannisters had intended to replace whoever was sitting in Winterfell once Sansa produced an heir. He's as much a "victim" of Tywin's false rewards as anyone else.

Agreed. Roose wants to become King in the North.

[E-Ro]

I think somewhere along the way, you bumped your head again Butter.

What books are you reading?

Oh fuck.

[butterbumps!]

I think somewhere along the way, you bumped your head again Butter.

What books are you reading?

Out of interest, do you think being rude makes your points stronger?

He's saved what families?

The Manderlys? Nope.

The Mormonts? Nope.

The Umbers? Nope.

The Flints? Nope.

The Hornwoods? Nope.

The Glovers? Nope.

The Tallharts? Nope.

The Karstarks? Yeah, kinda but their lady has made peace with Winterfell. The Karstarks he did make ally with are in chains, and soon to be killed. A useless alliance, that will likely bear no fruit.

The Dustins? Ok.

The Ryswells? Granted.

Here's who he's spared:

Norrey, Locke, and Burley men chiefly, with Ser Wylis Manderly and his White Harbor knights as rear guard.-- These are men he left on the other side of the river to be captured by Tywin, and therefore, not attand the RW. It represents 1/3 of the total forces he had.

Further, this is who he left to keep the other side of the bank and quite safe from both Tywin and the RW:

“I left six hundred men at the ford. Spearmen from the rills, the mountains, and the White Knife, a hundred Hornwood longbows, some freeriders and hedge knights, and a strong force of Stout and Cerwyn men to stiffen them. Ronnel Stout and Ser Kyle Condon have the command." (aSoS, Cat 6)

He made enemies of the most powerful house in the north not named Stark in the Manderlys, and most of the other prominent northern houses.

The Dustins and Ryswells alone don't tip the balance when most of the northern nobility hate him.

Other than kill Robb, what precisely do you think all these other families have on him? And keep in mind, Roose never swore Robb fealty as king.

And the Boltons even being alive after their last rebellion is silly, for all Martins prose of "hard men for a hard land", etc.

They've lasted thus far due to requirements of the plot, but i doubt any prior Bolton has dirtied their hands as much as Roose/Ramsay have.

I can't see them lasting past the end of the story.

If they do, then honestly the Starks deserve the betrayal and usurping that goes hand in hand with the Bolton name.

Bolton being the norths Lannister lackey is treason enough to a man like Stannis.

He would've fought the Starks, if it came to it, but he HATES the Lannisters.

So, you think that due to "requirements of the plot" Martin has made a point of saying that the Boltons are repeatedly causing rebellions, point out that other rebellious houses have been exterminated, and including the point that the Boltons survived? Why include the Boltons' persistence and the fact that other Houses-- one that was in fact a Stark offshoot-- gets destroyed? That's not a "plot reason." That's planting the seeds that something really weird is up with Bolton-Stark relations, and given they were spared in the past for even more egregious crimes, perhaps there's something beneath the surface we're missing.

Bolton is not a Lannister lackey when you actually think about it. He knows that the Lannisters were going to flush him and/ or Ramsay from Winterfell and whatever bullshit wardship they tossed his way once an heir was created. Oh, and the Lannisters also gave his son a false heir, extending their treachery even further. Which makes him the only thing blocking Lannister infiltration of the North. And he continuously reminds the Northmen how much he hates southroners at Winterfell, and does not exert his authority by appealing to the Tywin deal.

And let Roose try to present his slaying of his King as staunching the wounds of a defeated campaign.

Stannis would realize that had he had men as untrustworthy as Roose in his host, he himself might've died from a sword in the chest.

That would be the worst thing Roose could do.

If you actually look at Roose's actions, there really isn't anything that Stannis can technically charge him with. He's a slippery guy.

And Stannis is so concerned over traitors he welcomes those who previously swore fealty to Renly to his service, hires Northmen who previously supported Robb's cause to his own retinue, puts a guy still active at piracy in charge of his royal fleet, and had the wildlings known for raiding (including, but not limited to, Rattleshirt) resettle the Gift. Somehow, I don't see Stannis' moral outrage or complete distrust the way you do.

Further, Roose has played this to look completely like a Lannister victim (except for killing Robb, which he took explicit ownership of). As in, Roose can easily reveal the Lannisters' treachery to his own House as a viable reason why he'd be committed against the Lannisters.

Fact of the matter is, the Boltons add nothing to the north.

They're feared/mistrusted/disliked as a house, and cruelty is entwined with their history.

They're not as wealthy as the Manderlys, as true or entrenched in honor as the Umbers or Karstarks.

They're just there as a ruthlessly ambitious house that wants the number one spot.

They're honestly that bit of rot in a hard skinned apple.

Why wouldn't Stannis just kill the two guilty as sin people who're all thats left, and give the lands/castle to another more trustworthy noble?

The solution is so easy, why wouldn't he?

Who in the north is going to lament the loss of Roose/Ramsay? Or Fat Walda Bolton?

Fact of the matter is that the Boltons are not uniformly hated. We don't know what they add to the North, as it's never been discussed. But we do know that certain mountain clans and Umbers are not wholly against some of the Bolton practices. The Northmen as a whole are not some unilaterally honorable, compassionate people.

[Jon Dovahkiin Snow]

Lol. You said "redempted." I'm by no means a professor of the English language, but that made me laugh. Not making fun.

I see no redemption for Roose. If anything, I think we'll get an even darker glimpse into the sadism of house Bolton. I could see Roose and Ramsay killing each other. Or one just killing the other.

Things are about to go bonkers in Winterfell. Boltons, crypts, ghosts, Freys, Rayders, Manderlays, and other assorted Northerners, oh my. Not to mention Stannis knocking and Theon and Farya fleeing.

[binga]

We are all expecting Stannis to pull off some trickery and kill Roose, that is why I think Roose ultimately ends up winning. Winning is relative though because both sides are actually not in a great position. Especially if the wall comes down, it doesn't matter who wins. They could also both lose if the northern lords go for betrayal. I suppose Roose could team up with Mance Rayder.

[E-Ro]

Snip

I was going to use this time to troll you, but I suppose I wont, given the last few posts in here.

omg this freaking new quote system wont let me change your name. ugh.

We are all expecting Stannis to pull off some trickery and kill Roose, that is why I think Roose ultimately ends up winning. Winning is relative though because both sides are actually not in a great position. Especially if the wall comes down, it doesn't matter who wins. They could also both lose if the northern lords go for betrayal. I suppose Roose could team up with Mance Rayder.

I highly highly doubt it. Once the nevsky thing happens at that lake, manderly is going to join stannis and infiltrate WF. Bolton wont have much of a choice at that point, either he talks his way out of a hard death, or he runs, or dies.

btw, this is the nesky thing I keep referring to.

Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

"Bolton has blundered," the king declared. "All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved. Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle. His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot. His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies. It makes no matter. Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come. We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage."

Ever heard of alexander nevsky and the battle of ice?

Yes, well this is pretty obvious, but allow me to spell it out. In dance there is alot of foreshadowing for this.

1.Stannis and his men are on a lake, the lake is being drilled with numerous holes to fish from, one of the northmen comments on how the lake is fished out and full of holes.

2.Stannis comments on how his men will be fighting on foot.

3.He remarks on how he holds the ground.

4.The man in charge of the freys is an idiot, made even more stupid by his anger and frustration.

After the frey force sent after stannis is broken, manderly rides in, makes a deal with stannis takes his sword to roose as proof stannis is dead, and opens up the gates. Simple.

[The Frosted King]

Stannis accepting Renly's/Robbs banners is different from him pardoning a guy whose regicide impetus was basically "we were losing the war, so i killed my king in a secret plot".

Stannis, the guy who lost majorly at the Blackwater is going to wave that off? When it could've been him dead had he been cursed with a vassal as disloyal as Roose after his fiasco at Kings Landing?

And yeah, in a saga where pirates choose acorns and inevitable subjugation over limitless gold and probable independence, yeah, my nose tells me it reeks of the plot driving, rather than character.

The north, aside from Dorne is the last place that should scoff at war.

So the liege lords response to bannermen rebelling should be especially harsh.

A hard land breeds a hard people is said alot, but as of now, they're pirates who do nothing status.

A use of resources in putting down a civil war is wasteful, so the point made should be emphatic.

The Boltons cost us valuable men and food, so they are no more.

And being rude wasn't my intent. Patronizing yes.

Rude, no.