Roose bolton - How can he survive?

[SerCalius]

I think that Roose will die before the end, but I also think he has some hidden card to play before then.

[Mountain Tribesman]

He'll probably throw some of his previous collaborators in treason to the wolves (literally...) before he goes down, but he WILL go down. If not by Stannis, then by Jon or one of Ned's children. Sansa, Bran, Rickon or Arya (if Roose survives long enough for Arya and/or Rickon to show up guns blazing in Westeros...).

[falcotron]

Question:

Other than the Blackfish, who is around to testify what exactly happened at the RW?.... the reason I ask, is that could Roose deny he was involved and blame the whole thing on the Freys? ... could he invoke reasonable doubt?

Wouldn't it be hilarious if his master plan all along was to discredit the Freys as the first step to conquering them and take the Twins. "Cold, poverty, cold, people who won't shut up about 'honor', cold… Screw this, I'm moving south."

But seriously, he had other Northmen helping out in the slaughter. Even if they were all 100% loyal to Roose (and would remain so even if, say, Stannis defeated him), do you really believe they've all kept their mouths shut?

[Starkfaithful85]

Different case. Robb Stark was an enemy to the king's peace, he would have ripped the kingdom's apart if he had the chance to. He let the North fall to the Ironborn.

Theon killed two kids that did nothing wrong and were a threath to nobody. Very different situation.

Yeah But I would be willing to bet that stannis will not be able to forgive roose breaking his vows to his liege lord(like how renly broke his obligations to support the eldest male in his family.) Boltons will dies I just hope it happens soon cause I want to see some vengence for Robb

[Mithras]

Question:

Other than the Blackfish, who is around to testify what exactly happened at the RW?.... the reason I ask, is that could Roose deny he was involved and blame the whole thing on the Freys? ... could he invoke reasonable doubt?

I understand that "it is known"... but could he just tell Stannis "Wasn't me bro"?

In the books, Blackfish was not at the RW. But Roose's part in the RW is more or less known or guessed by the Northren Houses. UnCat and probably BwB knows it. The captives at the Twins (such as Greatjon) know it and they are soon to be rescued by the BwB. Roose's part in the Duskendale massacre is now known by Lord Manderly thanks to Robett Glover. And remember this happened much before the RW. All the Stark loyalists know or soon will learn the betrayal of Roose to its full extent. And Roose has nowhere to go other than Dreadfort.

[Biglose]

Roose can survive if he retreats back to the dreadfort and ramsay gets killed in Winterfell. It is one thing to want his head, it is an other thing to lay siege on the Dreadfort in the winter...

[bardstark]

REEK has overheard Roose 'mentoring' his son. now a turncloak's word against a kingslayer. winter is coming indeed.

[Jon 'Ghost' Targaryn]

How can Roose survive? He won't, I could see the foreshadowing in ADWD when Roose knows there are enemies in the halls of winter fell. He knows his time is near. And to think that Stannis will parlay with the man is clearly out of character with Stannis. Half of Stannis army is northerners who.....1. Never trusted the boltons in the first place. 2. Everyone knows of the treachery of the red wedding. 3. And everyone already knows he threw in with the lannisters. As for needing "roose's boltons" to start the battle from inside winterfell... The hooded man I'm sure is of some importance whoever he is. The Mance is in there too. And I'm not giving any spoilers for those who haven't read the theon chapter from TWOW, but I believe all bolton's are gonna meet their end hopefully by being flayed painfully slow! Sorry no empathy from me for the boltons. I think whoever started this thread is a big Roose homer and he hasn't accepted the fact that house will feel the wrath of the north and even though I'm not a huge Stannis fan......he will not allow this treachery to go without major retribution. HODOR!

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I don't think Roose has any hidden cards to play. Whenever it looks like a bad guy is backed into a corner in a sort of fiction they always have some hidden plan the levels the playing field. I hope GRRM goes the other way with Roose, that no matter how smart Roose is he can't worn his way out

[butterbumps!]

My mistake. I thought you felt he might have a shot at an ever after period.

This current situation isn't foolproof, n we know Martin will make his characters fools if need be.

Can Roose make it back to the Dreadfort by some slippery machinations, ala his decoy bit at Moat Cailin? Sure, anything's possible.

Can i forsee any scenario where Stannis has him dead to rights and willingly lets him go?

Never.

Even the Stannis in the WOW preview chapter seems implacable to his course.

I still don't understand your insistence on Ramsay being guilty as well as the Freys.

Ramsay burned Winterfell, but the Freys AND Roose murdered many of their family members.

I can't see them merely being satisfied with only half of the RW butchery committee.

Are you asking why I'm insisting that the Northmen's anger is more focused on Ramsay and the Freys?

So, first things first, there's a huge difference between Kingslaying and breaking guest right. It's violating guest right that people believe is a curse and are disgusted by. The crime of the Freys is seen as much worse than killing Robb. Yes, people loved Robb, but the fact that the Freys broke guest right is a more grievous crime in the eyes of gods and men.

In a similar vein, Ramsay's crimes are more outrageous than anything they can pin on Roose. The fact that Ramsay had Lady Hornwood eat her own fingers and hunts women for sport is well known. Roose has also taken care to spread tales of Ramsay's kinslaying (killing Domeric and any future half brothers). Ramsay is also the one who has pressed a claim to Winterfell through Arya, whom the entire castle knows he abuses. It's also rumored that Ramsay is the one who burnt Winterfell in the first place.

When you compare the guest right breach and Ramsay's enormities to the way Roose walked up to Robb in his House colors and killed him face to face, Roose's kingslaying just doesn't come close. Yes, it's killing his liege lord, but done in the open, as a single, contained act, it doesn't have nearly same insidious quality of attacking one's guests or poisoning one's brother. It's almost respectable in that he's not trying to hide, and it's certainly not craven or sadistic the way these other crimes are.

Roose's move is merely a political one, not emotional or sadistic. By contrast, the Freys action is emotional, violates the gods, irrational, craven, excessive and underhanded. And Ramsay's actions are similarly irrational and underhanded as well as sadistic and excessive.

To be clear, I'm not a fan of Roose's kingslaying, and I'm not trying to morally justify it. But it has to be noted that his action was significantly less galling, offensive and fear-inducing than the actions of the Freys and Ramsay to the Northmen. We know from Merrett's epilogue that Roose and Lame Lothar planned the wedding right down to the music choices, but all anyone else knows about Roose's culpability is that he killed Robb, in the open, in his own colors, thereby distancing himself from Frey's henchmen.

Are the Northmen pleased with Roose's kingslaying? No, of course not. But does it anger them the same way Ramsay and the Freys do? No. Which means that they prioritize getting rid of Ramsay and the Freys over getting rid of Roose. And these men are exhausted by war and with limited resources, which means that they may content themselves for the time being with Ramsay/ Frey blood, and nurse their Roose grievances to be acted on for a later time. In the meantime, Roose may be able to earn some good faith credit by delivering the Freys for slaughter.

As concerns Stannis, I'm not even sure that he and Roose would be in a position where they strike a deal. I know that Stannis has a Nevsky plan up his sleeve, but I hesitate to say that he will definitely capture Winterfell. Roose has the advantage in terms of being located in a geothermal castle in the midst of a snowstorm. He also has an advantage in that the strongest fighting forces (not green boys or greybeards) belong to the Ryswells, Dustins and Boltons. Which does not bode well for Stannis' forces if it comes down to a siege, unless Roose can be destroyed from the inside. With Frey and Manderly troops expelled, the odds of a Winterfell internal war is somewhat lowered. And those odds are lowered still in the event he sends Ramsay out to kamikaze himself by taking out Jon.

All I'm trying to say is that the direness of Roose's position has been overstated. He has a few advantages here, and he's repeatedly called cautious and cunning by the other major lords, including Tywin. I think it's folly to assume this is lost for him, and that he doesn't have a plan.

[Jon 'Ghost' Targaryn]

All I'm trying to say is that the direness of Roose's position has been overstated. He has a few advantages here, and he's repeatedly called cautious and cunning by the other major lords, including Tywin. I think it's folly to assume this is lost for him, and that he doesn't have a plan.

[E-Ro]

What's with ending all your posts in caps lock hodor? Don't you think that detracts from your post?

[butterbumps!]

Pray tell me how it's been overstated? He has an unknown army outside the walls of winterfell blowing horns. Again he trusts none of the northerners in his host (except boltons). He knows that Stannis cannot set in the snow much longer and must try and take winterfell. And someone said he could retreat to the Dreadfort....we'll he have to deal with the snow the same as everyone else. No, I believe the cunning Roose Bolton has played his last card and I am glad to see the downfall of the traitor and his bastard son is at hand. HODOR!

Uh, have you not read any of my posts? If you go back to page 1 and read my posts, you'd have your answer.

Some easy points though:

1. Bolton, Ryswell and Dustin forces are the most plentiful and best fighters of all the factions we have. That's an advantage. Huge. Cannot be understated.

2. The fact that Stannis is out in a snowstorm while Roose is in a geothermal castle with better fighters is also an advantage.

3. Unless Stannis can successfully infiltrate the castle and be accepted by the Northmen, Roose has an advantage. Which is possible for Stannis to do, but Stannis will have a lot of trouble appointing a someone in charge of Winterfell. Keep in mind, Stannis thought it was a good idea to put one of his Southron fools in charge there initially when revealing his plans to Jon.

[King Aerys the Just]

I don't think Ramsay and Roose will die at the same time, from essentially the same cause. Westeros is already running low on good antagonists. HODOR!

[E-Ro]

I don't get it. Hodor jokes=lame even before they became played out(which happened long ago)

[SerCalius]

Question:

Other than the Blackfish, who is around to testify what exactly happened at the RW?

The Greatjon perhaps. Though he was completely drunk I'm sure he remembers what happened. Also provided he is still sane and doesn't pull a Mad Axe at the Twins.

[King Aerys the Just]

I don't get it. Hodor jokes=lame even before they became played out(which happened long ago)

GRRM seems to disagree.

HODOR!

[bardstark]

from asoiaf wiki:

"It is revealed that Roose had planned this "Red Wedding" in detail with Lothar Frey, including the choice of songs.^[20] For this service, Tywin gives Roose the title of Warden of the North."

now the major argument is the breach of the guest right. however, i would argue that he shares in the culpability because of his willfulness in planning the violation of said right, and actually participating in the climax of the violation by killing his liege lord.

there seems to be a tangling of technicalities because it was at the Twins and not the Dreadfort. While we cannot argue the Freys major stake in responsibility, we must also admit Roose's volition because of his part in the planning (which is founded on the violation of the guest right) and the various awards/advantages/honors that would be given him by his treachery.

This goes beyond the "game of thrones", and begins with the Gods - who are far less litigious than we mere mortals.

[E-Ro]

GRRM seems to disagree.

HODOR!

Lol, just because the author thinks something is funny doesn't mean it is. What's more, he doesn't end every chapter in "hodor" in fact his use of the word is very limited.

Is This hodor thing a way of making fun of people you disagree with without actually calling them stupid? Because that's what it looks like.

[The Frosted King]

Are you asking why I'm insisting that the Northmen's anger is more focused on Ramsay and the Freys?

So, first things first, there's a huge difference between Kingslaying and breaking guest right. It's violating guest right that people believe is a curse and are disgusted by. The crime of the Freys is seen as much worse than killing Robb. Yes, people loved Robb, but the fact that the Freys broke guest right is a more grievous crime in the eyes of gods and men.

In a similar vein, Ramsay's crimes are more outrageous than anything they can pin on Roose. The fact that Ramsay had Lady Hornwood eat her own fingers and hunts women for sport is well known. Roose has also taken care to spread tales of Ramsay's kinslaying (killing Domeric and any future half brothers). Ramsay is also the one who has pressed a claim to Winterfell through Arya, whom the entire castle knows he abuses. It's also rumored that Ramsay is the one who burnt Winterfell in the first place.

When you compare the guest right breach and Ramsay's enormities to the way Roose walked up to Robb in his House colors and killed him face to face, Roose's kingslaying just doesn't come close. Yes, it's killing his liege lord, but done in the open, as a single, contained act, it doesn't have nearly same insidious quality of attacking one's guests or poisoning one's brother. It's almost respectable in that he's not trying to hide, and it's certainly not craven or sadistic the way these other crimes are.

Roose's move is merely a political one, not emotional or sadistic. By contrast, the Freys action is emotional, violates the gods, irrational, craven, excessive and underhanded. And Ramsay's actions are similarly irrational and underhanded as well as sadistic and excessive.

To be clear, I'm not a fan of Roose's kingslaying, and I'm not trying to morally justify it. But it has to be noted that his action was significantly less galling, offensive and fear-inducing than the actions of the Freys and Ramsay to the Northmen. We know from Merrett's epilogue that Roose and Lame Lothar planned the wedding right down to the music choices, but all anyone else knows about Roose's culpability is that he killed Robb, in the open, in his own colors, thereby distancing himself from Frey's henchmen.

Are the Northmen pleased with Roose's kingslaying? No, of course not. But does it anger them the same way Ramsay and the Freys do? No. Which means that they prioritize getting rid of Ramsay and the Freys over getting rid of Roose. And these men are exhausted by war and with limited resources, which means that they may content themselves for the time being with Ramsay/ Frey blood, and nurse their Roose grievances to be acted on for a later time. In the meantime, Roose may be able to earn some good faith credit by delivering the Freys for slaughter.

As concerns Stannis, I'm not even sure that he and Roose would be in a position where they strike a deal. I know that Stannis has a Nevsky plan up his sleeve, but I hesitate to say that he will definitely capture Winterfell. Roose has the advantage in terms of being located in a geothermal castle in the midst of a snowstorm. He also has an advantage in that the strongest fighting forces (not green boys or greybeards) belong to the Ryswells, Dustins and Boltons. Which does not bode well for Stannis' forces if it comes down to a siege, unless Roose can be destroyed from the inside. With Frey and Manderly troops expelled, the odds of a Winterfell internal war is somewhat lowered. And those odds are lowered still in the event he sends Ramsay out to kamikaze himself by taking out Jon.

All I'm trying to say is that the direness of Roose's position has been overstated. He has a few advantages here, and he's repeatedly called cautious and cunning by the other major lords, including Tywin. I think it's folly to assume this is lost for him, and that he doesn't have a plan.

Roose being a co-conspirator with Walder puts the dead northmen at his feet, along with Robb.

The bolton men slew Dacey and Smalljon as well.

So no, i don't see how throwing the Freys down keeps him safe.