Enlightening essays on Dany and Jon- ADWD (New Jon essay)

[MoIaF]

Thinking about it last night, my initial reaction to Dany giving birth to dragons was that it was (literally) awesome. Now I wonder if I wasn't being set up, because the dragons were always going to be a problem. On the one hand, of course, Dany would never have obtained her army without them; on the other, it is difficult to be an effective ruler of a peaceful kingdom if you have dragons burning random people.

Hopefully, this ends with her learning to control and harness them, so she can use them without causing unintended mass death.

I think she can rule peacefully with the dragons, other Targs managed to do so. Perhaps the dragons are like her unruly, wild, dangers, sometime out of control now that they are young. However, with time and experience they can be controlled, and they can target effectively the enemy. Without causing destruction everywhere they go.

[Adam Feldman]

Hi, I'm the author of the Meereenese Blot essays. Thanks for your comments and kind words, everybody. I wanted to respond to this one point:

Clearly GRRM did put a LOT of effort into Danys arc. I can only imagine his dismay at its near universal slamming and the fact that peaceful Dany is seen as pathetic character regression. But at the same time, as a writer, you're kind of meant to make sure that the bulk of your readers get the point.

First of all, the arc is still unfinished. The locust poisoner remains unrevealed, and any transformation in Dany remains hinted at rather than seen in practice. If my general points are in fact what GRRM was aiming at, he still has ample opportunity to make this somewhat more clear in TWOW.

Second, there is a trade-off between making your narrative "point" clear and fully adhering to the unreliable narrator POV structure. Throughout the entire book, Dany is miserable, frustrated, and filled with self-doubt as she pursues peace. And finally, the embrace of "fire and blood" in the Dothraki Sea makes her feel confident and powerful again. GRRM wants readers to be on this journey with her. We see almost the entire Meereen plotline through her eyes, and she is filled with doubt about her actions the whole way through, and eventually concludes they were silly and mistaken, and she should go another way. So I think it's quite natural for the vast majority of readers to come away with the same basic impression.

Now, did GRRM expect so many fans to be so uninterested in and disdainful toward the Meereen plotline? Probably not. Does he care that they felt that way (if he even knows)? I doubt it. This is the story that he most wanted to tell, he's writing for his legacy, and he likely feels that he told it quite well. I at least happen to agree, but others are certainly free to differ.

[Tyrion1991]

Another reason I felt this story was only going one way was the huge precedent that was set by Ned Starks death; something reinforced ever since. So when I started reading Danys arc my thoughts were immediately "Here we go again. Honorable character trying to do the right thing and being crushed by the realities of the world. She has to change, or she will die.". Because of this perception I felt (correctly) that her arc was only going to go one way, the peace was bound to fail and Dany would choose war. To me the books have always made the point that honorable actions are the path of weakness and don't work in the real world. If this were Lord of the Rings; she could have achieved this. But this is not Lord of the Rings. Had this sort of arc been in first book or even an earlier book, I may have felt more involved because this perception was less reinforced and I didn't know the peace was going to fail or that Dany was going to embrace fire and blood. This late in the series I don't think anyone would assume that Dany is going to build a peaceful co-existence with the slavers.

@Adam Freedman, He could turn the tables in WoW. But a problem is that peaceful Dany was SO hated and people so wanted her to be strong and fire and blood. Because of that, I am not kidding, she would have to be deliberately killing children before people would ever take note or see it as a bad thing. Martin left a lot of people with the impression that a peaceful of Dany with restraint is an idealized view which had no place in the real world. So I think readers largely accept a lot of the darkness and brutality that comes with war. Plus, anything that gets her to Westeros faster will also be seen as a good thing and these actions as the only way of getting her to that point. Basically, things like collateral damage from dragonfire, making pyramids of slaver heads outside their cities, sacking said cities, sacrificing them to rhollor, torturing them etc etc. They would be viewed with indifference rather than horror. Even if Martin presented us with a character who started mourning the loss of peaceful Dany and thinking these things in clear explicit terms (Barristan very likely here); I think people would take that position as one of naivety and dismiss it out of hand. Most readers would probably remember that peace/restraint caused Danys ADWD arc and be instantly turned against it. So I think it does matter how a vast bulk of people perceived Danys arc in ADWD and, again, Martin would have to have her do something extremely dark to dent that perception.

I am pretty sure a persons legacy depends on current readers opinions. Otherwise his legacy would be "great beginning and ending; ADWD/AFFC were atrocious filler". Plus, it is a given that if he spent that long on Danys ADWD arc he would have wanted people to have said that it was brilliantly written and engrossing. Which is far from the reaction is received. Even very favorable professional reviews of ADWD (who BTW haven't hit upon the good points you've made either) consider Danys arc to be the weakest part of the story. Clearly if Martin spent so long on those sections and boosted the numbers of Dany chapters he wanted to be a selling point of ADWD; certainly not a negative. So I don't buy the ivory tower thing with him only thinking about how literary critics will think of his work in 30 years time. Especially his recent comments in interviews acknowledge (some of) the dislike for Danys ADWD arc and Martin saying he wanted to look at the subject of ruling. So he clearly is aware of this and I suspect disgruntled by it if he was going to make a defense of her arc several years after the book was even published. I mean, literally, I've been online, I've spoken to my friends and other people who know people who've read the books, this site; almost never a positive opinion of Danys arc. At best you get indifference.

You're a little too confident that WoW will make everyone reflect back on ADWD and decide it was actually a great book IMO. People will say WoW is good and although I expect Martin will look for vindication by endlessly bringing up Danys ADWD arc; it isn't going to work.

Just to point out. I absolutely agree with what your essays say and your in depth analysis of Martins writing. However, I think that only illustrates that Martin didn't get the message across thematically or make it very engaging and it was far too predictable that the well meaning peace would fail ala Ned Stark; that Dany would embrace fire and blood. For instance as I suggested earlier, I really felt the Dany wondering if she was mad and fearing herself was something Martin had brought up at the end of Storm but simply forgot in ADWD. Whilst Daario's more complex meaning as embodying war is buried under infantile humor and silliness so that you don't take Danys relationship with him seriously. Basically, I shouldn't have to read several essays in order to understand whats going on in Danys arc. That should be clear. Didn't need this to know what was happening to Ned Stark and shouldn't need to here either.

[Adam Feldman]

But a problem is that peaceful Dany was SO hated and people so wanted her to be strong and fire and blood. Because of that, I am not kidding, she would have to be deliberately killing children before people would ever take note or see it as a bad thing… Martin would have to have her do something extremely dark to dent that perception.

But this is exactly my point! War is supposed to seem like a more seductive, simpler, stronger, better option. Unlike Ned's arc, Dany's arc is still continuing and the true meaning of it is not supposed to be clear yet, necessarily. I definitely think Martin wants to set up readers to cheer for Dany's invasion (Tyrion will be on her side, Volantene slaves to free, etc). But then it will become a bloody debacle and escalating horror. I think your criticisms here will prove to be quite premature. Since when has Martin had a problem with doing "something extremely dark"?

Anyway, you seem to be trying to establish that Martin failed with the arc simply because the majority of fans either didn't like it or didn't get it, or because of your own initial negative reaction to it, which means Martin failed to get across what he wanted to get across. But -- beyond my point that the arc is ongoing and we may not be supposed to fully get it yet -- I simply don't view fan response as relevant, at all, in evaluating a work's literary merits, so we're probably talking past each other here. (I don't much care about initial reactions either -- as I mentioned, my initial reaction to this arc was also quite negative, and I only came to love it on the reread.) I think if the work is deep and rich and has so much underlying substance, it is a great work, regardless of initial reactions or fan opinions.

[Tyrion1991]

Yeah but even very well read people who (apparently) personally know Martin have not came away from Danys arc with your opinion. For instance Ellio and (forget other reviewers name) on Westeros.org. Their review of ADWD had them very much of the opinion that Dany in the pit and with Drogon is meant to be uplifting and a good thing. No suggestion of foreboding and that this is a failure of resolve on the characters part or foreboding for terrible things. One of them even suggested that Danys arc probably didn't need to be as long and "pays off" at the end if you're patient.

[THE WATCHER IN THE DARK]

Can't wait for the Jon Snow essays, Good work!!

[First of My Name]

I second everybody who complimented the essays.

[Count Balerion]

Immediate fan response may or may not affect ultimate legacy. The first performance of Barber of Seville was a fiasco.

My own criticism of DWD isn't Dany's arc, but rather endless travelogue. Tyrion spends the entire book heading towards Daenerys, but doesn't meet her in a thousand pages. Too much like FFC.

[GoldenFleece]

To be fair though in Tyrion's "travelogue" , we met "Aegon", his personality, his weaknesses and ultimately his fate , and where IIlyrio and Vary's hopes lie in this game of thrones. Tyrion's turmoil over killing his father. We also see the inner turmoil of Ser Jorah. I loved ADWD, every bit of it. It is great we get to see so much of GRRM's world outside Westeros. Also FFC is very much underrated - a great book.

[Stannis of House Baratheon]

Loved these essays. Just finished rereading aDwD, and I enjoyed the Mereen plotline much more this time around. The first time I was kind of just screaming at her to go to Westeros...

Love the depression and self-doubt she feels, while also being very driven and committed to ending slavery in Slaver's Bay. Looking forward to the Jon essays!

[Count Balerion]

The earlier part, where he meets Aegon, is fine; later it started to drag (for me).

In FFC, I like Cersei's trainwreck and Jaime's development; not so much the bit where they're wandering through the same countryside we already saw in COK ... and I don't care for that Damphair guy much, either.

[MoIaF]

The first Jon essay is up: http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-i-jons-noble-heart-and-greater-duty/

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The first Jon essay is up: http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-i-jons-noble-heart-and-greater-duty/

Nice essay I enjoyed it :D

[MoIaF]

Nice essay I enjoyed it :D

I know, I really enjoy his writing style. I'm not sure what direction Adam is going to go, but I've read some of his other stuff and he also talked about Jon heading on a darker path.

Would make sense though, if Dany is heading on a darker path that Jon would be too. They have had parallel stories throughout the series, and it will be interesting to see how they are view in universe and where their path lead them in the end.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I know, I really enjoy his writing style. I'm not sure what direction Adam is going to go, but I've read some of his other stuff and he also talk about Jon heading on a darker path.

Would make sense though if Dany is heading on a darker path that Jon would be too. They have had pretty parallel stories throughout the series, and it will be interesting to see how they are view in universe and where their path lead them in the end.

Yea if Jon spends time in Ghost I can see him becoming a bit animalistic, not sure if thats a real word :p

Also after being stabbed by his own brothers is definetly going to push him into a new way of thinking.

Yea Dany and Jon have alot of parallels as well, Dany want a home and Jon rejects the home he has.

[SeanF]

Another reason I felt this story was only going one way was the huge precedent that was set by Ned Starks death; something reinforced ever since. So when I started reading Danys arc my thoughts were immediately "Here we go again. Honorable character trying to do the right thing and being crushed by the realities of the world. She has to change, or she will die.". Because of this perception I felt (correctly) that her arc was only going to go one way, the peace was bound to fail and Dany would choose war. To me the books have always made the point that honorable actions are the path of weakness and don't work in the real world. If this were Lord

of the Rings; she could have achieved this. But this is not Lord of the Rings. Had this sort of arc been in first book or even an earlier book, I may have felt more involved because this perception was less reinforced and I didn't know the peace was going to fail or that Dany was going to embrace fire and blood. This late in the series I don't think anyone would assume that Dany is going to build a peaceful co-existence with the slavers.

@Adam Freedman, He could turn the tables in WoW. But a problem is that peaceful Dany was SO hated and people so wanted her to be strong and fire and blood. Because of that, I am not kidding, she would have to be deliberately killing children before people would ever take note or see it as a bad thing. Martin left a lot of people with the impression that a peaceful of Dany with restraint is an idealized view which had no place in the real world. So I think readers largely accept a lot of

the darkness and brutality that comes with war. Plus, anything that gets her to Westeros faster will also be seen as a good thing and these actions as the only way of getting her to that point. Basically, things like collateral damage from dragonfire, making pyramids of slaver heads outside their cities, sacking said cities, sacrificing them to rhollor, torturing them etc etc. They would be viewed with indifference rather than horror. Even if Martin presented us with a character who started mourning the loss of peaceful Dany and thinking these things in clear explicit terms (Barristan very likely here); I think people would take that position as one of naivety and dismiss it out of hand. Most readers would probably remember that peace/restraint caused Danys ADWD arc and be instantly turned against it. So I think it does matter how a vast bulk of people perceived Danys arc in ADWD and, again, Martin would have to have her do something extremely dark to dent that perception.

I am pretty sure a persons legacy depends on current readers opinions. Otherwise his legacy would be "great beginning and ending; ADWD/AFFC were atrocious filler". Plus, it is a given that if he spent that long on Danys ADWD arc he would have wanted people to have said that it was brilliantly written and engrossing. Which is far from the reaction is received. Even very favorable professional reviews of ADWD (who BTW haven't hit upon the good points you've made either) consider Danys arc to be the weakest part of the story. Clearly if Martin spent so long on those sections and boosted the numbers of Dany chapters he wanted to be a selling point of ADWD; certainly not a negative. So I don't buy the ivory tower thing with him only thinking about how literary critics will think of his work in 30 years time. Especially his recent comments in interviews acknowledge (some of) the dislike for Danys ADWD arc and Martin saying he wanted to look at the subject

of ruling. So he clearly is aware of this and I suspect disgruntled by it if he was going to make a defense of her arc several years after the book was even published. I mean, literally, I've been online, I've spoken to my friends and other people who know people who've read the books, this site; almost never a positive opinion of Danys arc. At best you get indifference.

You're a little too confident that WoW will make everyone reflect back on ADWD and decide it was actually a great book IMO. People will say WoW is good and although I expect Martin will look for vindication by endlessly bringing up Danys ADWD arc; it isn't going to work.

Just to point out. I absolutely agree with what your essays say and your in depth analysis of Martins writing. However, I think that only illustrates that Martin didn't get the message across thematically or make it very engaging and it was far too predictable that the well meaning peace would fail ala Ned Stark; that Dany would embrace fire and blood. For instance as I suggested earlier, I really felt the Dany wondering if she was mad and fearing herself was something Martin had brought up at the end of Storm but simply forgot in ADWD. Whilst Daario's more complex meaning as embodying war is buried under infantile humor and silliness so that you don't take Danys relationship with him seriously. Basically, I shouldn't have to read several essays in order to understand whats going on in Danys arc. That should be

clear. Didn't need this to know what was happening to Ned Stark and shouldn't need to here either.

I think it's far too early to say how readers will eventually view ADWD. Personally, I loved it when I read it, and more so on rereads, but I won't know how good it really is until the whole story has been completed.

I think that many people were confused by Dany's efforts to make peace, and her apparent passivity. But, I think her problems all flow logically from the decisions she took in ASOS, when she seemed to be riding high. Her last chapter in ASOS shows how bad things are actually starting to turn out for her.

[MoIaF]

Yea if Jon spends time in Ghost I can see him becoming a bit animalistic, not sure if thats a real word :P

Also after being stabbed by his own brothers is definetly going to push him into a new way of thinking.

Yea Dany and Jon have alot of parallels as well, Dany want a home and Jon rejects the home he has.

This is so true, it will be interesting to see (if both Dany and Jon survive) if either of them will finally find a place were they could belong.

[Adam Feldman]

Thanks for posting the new link!

I'm not sure what direction Adam is going to go, but I've read some of his other stuff and he also talked about Jon heading on a darker path.

I've played with that idea a bit in the past, but I don't think I'll really go there in this series, as I'm trying to keep it to analysis of the published text rather than speculation. I did for Dany because I think her crucial transformation has already happened (internally). But much of Jon's transformation is surely still ahead as he is revived, learns some lessons based on the fallout at the Wall, etc. I don't think it's yet clear which particular lessons he will learn.

[MoIaF]

Thanks for posting the new link!

I've played with that idea a bit in the past, but I don't think I'll really go there in this series, as I'm trying to keep it to analysis of the published text rather than speculation. I did for Dany because I think her crucial transformation has already happened (internally). But much of Jon's transformation is surely still ahead as he is revived, learns some lessons based on the fallout at the Wall, etc. I don't think it's yet clear which particular lessons he will learn.

Thank you for clarifying, can't wait for the next one! :)

[Count Balerion]

I wonder if GRRM intended and parallel/contrast between Jon's approach to ruling and Dany's. Of course, Dany has to rule a much larger population; on the other hand, Jon has a larger area and the task of dealing with the Others and defending the Wall. But both have to effect radical change in their jurisdictions.

Dany seems both more willing to compromise with opponents (admittedly Jon's don't seem amenable) and to consulting advisors, in contrast to Jon's sending away his potential allies in the Watch. (Dany does send away Jorah, of course, but only after his spying has been uncovered.)

Anyway, great essays! Look forward to more.