NHL 2013-14 - Yes, there's a thread for that

[Jabronius Maximus]

At least its not up to Colin Campbell anymore. I seem to remember he wasn't allowed making decisions about the Bruins because of his son playing for them. But I'm sure he still had influence.

That was established a few years ago, but even since then the Bruins regularly seem to avoid the wrath of Shanny.

Turning the attention to the Olympics:

- I find it baffling how news stories are coming out saying that PK Subban's stock for the Olympics is rising, and he could possibly land a spot. A lot of the pundits have Subban outside of the top 6 Dmen, with names like Vlasic and Bouwmeester ranked ahead of him. REALLY? I'm no Habs fan, but in what universe are those 2 ahead of him? I do get that those 2 are left shots, and the team is full of RH shooters, but that is grasping at straws.

- Why is this an issue? It seems like Hockey Canada is completely ignorant of the fact that Subban won the Norris last year, and is in the running again this year (and will be for years to come). How can you leave a dominant defenseman like that off the team?

- Seems to me that HC is drumming up any reasonable sounding argument to leave him off the team. My gut feeling is that they just don't get a good vibe from him, and he doesn't fit their idea of a good defenseman. For some reason the combination of an edgy personality with top end skill doesn't work for them. Or does it? Corey Perry is a lock on the team, and he is the prototypical edgy star. So why not Subban?

- Subban is miles better defensively than Karlsson, but you don't see Sweden debating his spot on their team. Subban should be a lock on Canada, no questions asked. People can compare it to the Doughty situation in 2010, but that doesn't work because at the time Doughty didn't have the hardware that Subban does.

Edit: and for the upcoming World Juniors, Hockey Canada has left Oilers prospect Darnell Nurse (a 6'5 version of Subban) off the team. This is a guy who is at 1.2 points per game in the OHL right now. Can skate, hit and score. Seriously, what does HC have against big black defensemen? I hate using the R-word in this case, but sometimes I really wonder...

[Merentha]

So, I thought Columbus did surprisingly well against the Pens today. The Pens were missing a good chunk of their defense, to be sure, but Columbus put on a really good show.

[Jabronius Maximus]

So, I thought Columbus did surprisingly well against the Pens today. The Pens were missing a good chunk of their defense, to be sure, but Columbus put on a really good show.

With Columbus, I thought the move to the east would result in a much better record than it has so far. I mean before this, they were up against St Louis, Chicago, Detroit and Nashville. Obviously Bob hasn't matched last year's dominant play, but still what gives?

[BLU-RAY]

Hector - is your perception (since you're on the ground and I'm not) that it's Hockey Canada that's dogging Subban, or that it's the Canadian media? I've taken for granted that he's getting on, and that the media are just talking out their asses because he's a divisive personality or whatever. I can't imagine they'll not leave him on, you need him on that point.

[Jabronius Maximus]

Hector - is your perception (since you're on the ground and I'm not) that it's Hockey Canada that's dogging Subban, or that it's the Canadian media? I've taken for granted that he's getting on, and that the media are just talking out their asses because he's a divisive personality or whatever. I can't imagine they'll not leave him on, you need him on that point.

Yeah it's the media, not hockey canada. I kind of realize that's what I'm criticizing in my post. We won't know what HC thinks of him until the actual selection. It's this strange media-created notion that despite Subban's excellence on the ice, he's not a 'team player', or his attitude and affect isn't right, or he has too much of an edge. Basically, he's playing excellent on defense and offense, but he's not playing 'the right way' - I've heard this exact argument from a few media members, and it is a totally asinine position to take.

He's divisive because he has a 'big' personality, and this is a sport where any kind of personality is frowned upon by the media and grumpy old nhl execs. I remember when the Doughty addition in 2010 was criticized, but he ended up being the 3rd best dman on Canada in the Olympics.

[BLU-RAY]

Yeah, I agree. Canadian hockey media contains a very interesting subset of idiots, as exemplified by Cherry and his ilk. There are some good ones, too, but the populist-side narrative is all driven by those yahoos.

[balefired-ed]

I think I'm only going to come into this thread after losses instead of wins.

The CBJ just don't match up well against the Pens, and it sucks.

Bob and Gabby out for at least a month is no fun. Hopefully Horton can join the team soon.

As long as we stay within a few points of eighth place I think we have a shot when everybody gets back. Here's hoping.

[Greywolf2375]

That was a really cheap shot by Thornton. Who hits somebody when their laying helplessly on the ice?

Who knees someone in the head when they are laying helplessly on the ice?

I'm not a major fan of hockey, but I don't understand how fighting is accepted in hockey yet the punch is more egregious than the knee to the head. Did Thornton break the unwritten code by going after someone who previously had backed off of him and didn't want to fight? Yes - and he absolutely deserves to be suspended. But there is no code, there is no where in the rules that makes an acceptance for the drive by kneeing to the head.

[DanteGabriel]

Who knees someone in the head when they are laying helplessly on the ice?

I'm not a major fan of hockey, but I don't understand how fighting is accepted in hockey yet the punch is more egregious than the knee to the head. Did Thornton break the unwritten code by going after someone who previously had backed off of him and didn't want to fight? Yes - and he absolutely deserves to be suspended. But there is no code, there is no where in the rules that makes an acceptance for the drive by kneeing to the head.

Does the unwritten code cover guys like Orpik who take runs at guys and lay them out, and then flee when someone challenges them to a fight? Orpik concussed Loui Eriksson with a legal, but unnecessary, hit. Then the knee to the head from James Neal, what the crap was that? Refs lost control of the situation and Thornton tried to take matters into his own hands.

Not excusing Thornton -- it was a horrible thing to do, and he should rightly be suspended. But at least he seemed to realize he made a mistake aferwards -- he was crying and remorseful after that. No remorse from Neal about the cheap shot on Marchand's head. And all the talk here makes it seem like Thornton acted in a vacuum, when there was a pretty clear chain of events from Orpik hitting Eriksson, fleeing a fight with Thornton, and then getting cold-cocked by Thornton. Yeah, Thornton's a tough guy, and he's a fighter, but he's not a goon. He's never been suspended before. After the Eriksson hit and the Marchand hit, which came a game after Boychuk got carted off the ice, it must have seemed like open season on the Bruins. Clearly he lost control and did a shitty thing, but let's not pretend he just randomly freaked out and jumped an innocent guy.

[Nictarion]

Who knees someone in the head when they are laying helplessly on the ice?

I didn't see the knee to the head. But yes that's just as bad, maybe worse.

[Jabronius Maximus]

They're both terrible plays, and Neal might've gotten off light with his 5 game ban. But the league will probably factor in the result of the plays as well, and Orpik ended up much worse off than Marchand. So Thornton will likely get a bigger suspension.

I'm surprised how Dupuis got nothing for his Paul Bunyon-esque chop on Kelly, which broke his ankle.

[Greywolf2375]

They're both terrible plays, and Neal might've gotten off light with his 5 game ban. But the league will probably factor in the result of the plays as well, and Orpik ended up much worse off than Marchand. So Thornton will likely get a bigger suspension.

I'm surprised how Dupuis got nothing for his Paul Bunyon-esque chop on Kelly, which broke his ankle.

that's where the NHL needs more consistency. If there is a legit fight (this is a hypothetical) and Thornton drops Orpik in one punch or several, Orpik hits his head and is concussed, should there be any additional penalty over the 5 minute major (or whatever the appropriate penalty is)?

Again, I'm not defending Thornton for his act, I just think that Neal deserves a suspension at least as long because of his act.

[Jabronius Maximus]

Well that's a different case entirely, because Orpik would be agreeing to fight. Thornton and Orpik would get 5 minutes and that's it (maybe a 2 min instigator somewhere in there). If Orpik got concussed, then tough luck because he knew what he was getting into by agreeing to fight. Trouble is he didn't agree to fight, and Thornton still went after him like that. The in-person hearing suggests 6+ games, and I get the feeling the league will throw the book at him.

The only reason I'd say Neal would deserve a suspension as long is because of his prior history. Thornton hasn't been suspended before, so that works in his favour. I could see a 9-10 gamer for him.

[DanteGabriel]

They're both terrible plays, and Neal might've gotten off light with his 5 game ban. But the league will probably factor in the result of the plays as well, and Orpik ended up much worse off than Marchand. So Thornton will likely get a bigger suspension.

He definitely got off light. And the fact that he only got two minutes for that, I'm sure, contributed to Thornton's anger.

So you have Orpik gunning after Eriksson and concussing him, what, 20 seconds into the game? And then Neal, who does have a history, kneeing Marchand in the head, and only getting a two-minute penalty.

Yeah, this is the super-classy Pens. This is the team that "rehabilitated" Matt Cooke. Pigfuckers.

[Demonblade]

Yeah it's the media, not hockey canada. I kind of realize that's what I'm criticizing in my post. We won't know what HC thinks of him until the actual selection. It's this strange media-created notion that despite Subban's excellence on the ice, he's not a 'team player', or his attitude and affect isn't right, or he has too much of an edge. Basically, he's playing excellent on defense and offense, but he's not playing 'the right way' - I've heard this exact argument from a few media members, and it is a totally asinine position to take.

It's not unlike the media's near constant musings about rumours of Evander Kane's attitude outside the rink. Apparently because he's a 'big personality type', he's not a team player, he's in it for himself, etc. in other words, he's black and the hockey world is, at its highest level, still primarily a homogeneous group of people, with a mostly white majority of players and pundits. It's troublesome to fall back on race, but the media's attitude toward PK Subban is not unlike other black NHL athletes, and race has to have something to do with this unspoken perception of some people.

[Demonblade]

He definitely got off light. And the fact that he only got two minutes for that, I'm sure, contributed to Thornton's anger.

So you have Orpik gunning after Eriksson and concussing him, what, 20 seconds into the game? And then Neal, who does have a history, kneeing Marchand in the head, and only getting a two-minute penalty.

Yeah, this is the super-classy Pens. This is the team that "rehabilitated" Matt Cooke. Pigfuckers.

Orpik's hit was legal, though. Ericsson was caught with his head down and paid the price. His fleeing a fight made sense to me because Thornton is a fighter and Orpik is not. I could understand if Thornton did this immediately after, but half the game passed and he pulled this shit. He slew-footed Orpik and layed out two solid hits to Orpik's head while he was down on the ice. No matter how you slice it, it was a dirty play, and not justified at all, IMO.

[DanteGabriel]

Orpik's hit was legal, though. Ericsson was caught with his head down and paid the price. His fleeing a fight made sense to me because Thornton is a fighter and Orpik is not. I could understand if Thornton did this immediately after, but half the game passed and he pulled this shit. He slew-footed Orpik and layed out two solid hits to Orpik's head while he was down on the ice. No matter how you slice it, it was a dirty play, and not justified at all, IMO.

Your facts are a little off. Orpik hit Eriksson ten seconds in. Ten minutes later, still in the first period, Crosby tripped Marchand and Neal skated into his head. It was immediately after this, still in the first period, when Thornton went after Orpik. You're trying to make it seem like the incidents weren't related when, in fact, they were.

Here's a sequence of events that should put a little more light on why Thornton went nuts:

- Boychuk takes a brutal (but technically legal hit) in Montreal, gets carted off the ice. No penalty on that. Apparently no one in Montreal thought it was necessary to summon the police for that hit so that's something.

- Next night, ten seconds into the game, Orpik rams Eriksson and gives him his second concussion of the year. No penalty is called.

- Ten minutes later, Sidney Crosby trips Marchand and Neal skates his knee into Marchand's head. Neal gets two minutes, a laughably light penalty, especially given his history.

- While the Neal/Marchand incident is resolving, Thornton slew-foots Orpik and punches him twice, knocking him cold.

Again, not excusing what Thornton did. It was wrong. But let's not pretend the incidents were that far separated. And I will continue to put a ton of blame on the officials and on the punk-ass Pens for creating such a dangerous, out-of-control environment.

[Demonblade]

Well actually I did catch the last few minutes of the game, but only saw the footage in question later. What I did see was Thornton trying in vain after the fact trying to get back at Orpik, leading to what happened. Even if it was just 10 minutes, that's ten minutes of Thornton trying to get back at Orpik. That's the problem, this retaliatory bullshit. He crossed the line, but what pisses me off is that, quite often when incidents like these occur, somebody goes as close as they can to the line in this childish attempt to exact justice on their own terms. If Thornton wanted to get back at Orpik, he could have laid out a heavy hit of his own on him. Instead, he wanted to fight the guy, and I'm really getting tired of having that as a viable solution in this game. Because then you have situations like these where the line between what's part of the game and what constitutes criminal assault becomes cloudy. This game is so much more than one element, which isn't even legal vis a vis the rules of the game.

[Jabronius Maximus]

First of all I wanna say that it's good to see the NHL thread alive and well. Good work guys!

- Anyway, I'm not a fan of the Pens or Bruins by any stretch but they're both among the league's most 'edgy' teams. And when you have a matchup of 2 teams that despise each other, they tend to bring out the best and worst out of each other. And that includes these shenanigans.

- As for Orpik backing off from Thornton earlier in the game, why would Orpik have to fight? The general consensus is that the hit of Eriksson was clean (although a rather unfortunate result for Eriksson). So what, now guys will have to answer for clean hits? This whole thing about the 'code' is a big steaming pile of confusion, and because of that we get sequences like last night. What I fear though is for real change to take place, something truly horrifying might have to happen on the ice. I hope it doesn't come to that.

- As for racism and the treatment of Kane and Subban, I think it's a dicey issue to bring up. We see European (particularly Russian) players constantly getting the same type of treatment. I'd say it's xenophobia if anything. The prototypical star hockey player in the eyes of veteran media and NHL execs would be one who is humble, (preferably white?) Canadian/American, respects and doesn't question authority, and shuts up and plays well on offense and defense.

- So when a star comes along who may not be so humble, or god forbid has a personality, he gets ostracized. I think the result of the ostracizing is where the 'selfish' notion might come from. He's not like the other players, so he gets branded with the selfish tag. And from that will come a host of other criticisms - not buying into the team concept, poor defensive play, too hard to coach, etc.

- As an example, consider players A and B. A plays his heart out, keeps coming back after getting knocked down, and is far from a defensive liability. However, B seems to coast along, scoring enough to show he's relevant, but overall seems content with collecting his fat paycheque and nothing more. Player A is Grabovski (Belarussian). Player B is Rick Nash (Canadian). Yet their portrayals by the media, and even treatment by executives will lead you to believe the exact opposite. Grabo has a bit of an abrasive personality, which rubs the media the wrong way. But there's no questioning his effort and where his focus lies (I realize he used to be a punk, but he's matured quite well). Nash fits that prototypical star profile, so you hear no one calling him out on anything. It's a crying shame, really.

[Demonblade]

Russian players, particularly amongst their European counterparts, have been seen as having 'no heart' by some for decades, but that's different from the recent criticism directed at players such as Subban and Kane. While their 'heart' (or work ethic if you prefer) is rarely questioned, it's their perceived attitude which bothers some in the media, who then portray an inaccurate depiction of that player's character. I think that this questioning of some players' character ultimately has ties to race by connecting attitude with racial stereotypes. Subban is incredibly talented and confident, and he lets it be known that he's good at what he does. Add to the fact that he's black, and therefore saddled with all the perceptions that come along with racial prejudice, and you have the perception that Subban is an arrogant jerk out for himself.

Mind you, much of the concern for guys like these comes from message boards, commentary sections in online newspapers and fan sites. In Kane's case, the ire directed at him sometimes stem from rumours of past behaviour, or anecdotes from people who know people who saw something. I think a lot of Kane's detractors from those sites are probably racist from what I've seen. Maybe the traditional media just picks up on a vocal minority and presents it as a real controversy.