Heresy 74

[Mithras]

A question to carry on the discussion from Heresy 73.

We have an oddity in this communications business.

Jon, we know, can't sense or communicate with Ghost when both are on different sides of the Wall. GRRM has specifically drawn attention to this small but significant plot device.

So what is significant about it?

We have an apparent contradiction in that the Wall does not impede the Three-Eyed Crow - assumed for the sake of argument to be Bloodraven. As discussed late in Heresy 73 it may have been communicating with Bran through the direwolf known as Summer.

Is the significance that only Ghost cannot communicate across the Wall and is this another pointer to his not being from the same litter and not answering to the gang in the Cave of Skulls?

I think the Wall does not block warg telepathy. Jon is not a fully-trained skinchanger like Bloodraven or Bran in the cave. That is the simplest reason i can think of.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

No we can't lay it to rest. That is simply what Bloodraven believes based on his experience. It does not mean Bran isn't/won't be capable of it. I believe Bran has already had his voice heard by at least Ned and Theon, both in ADWD.

One thing Heresy has taught me is to take anything a character says with a grain of salt.

Well, I'm pretty new around here - so I honestly appreciate the reminder about reading character claims carefully. (Still learning what this "heresy" approach is all about.). That said - I'm not sure the examples of Ned and Theon contradict Bloodraven's claim. Ned's scene is in the past, but we don't know what he actually hears when Bran speaks. In Theon's case, we do have access to Theon's POV:

" "Theon," a voice seemed to whisper... The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god's voice, or a ghost's."

But in this case, we know that Bran is already greenseeing - contemporaneously. Bran's last POV in ADwD is Chapter 34... Theon hears his name whispered under Winterfell's heart tree in Chapter 37 ("The Prince of Winterfell"). So BR's denial of greenseers' ability to change the past doesn't really apply.

Still - your point about BR speaking from his own experience is well taken, and there are many reasons Bran's experience and potential as a greenseer could be different. The two that stand out to me are the facts that (1) a fundamental premise of this narrative is that old powers and magic are returning to the world after long absence; and (2) Bran is inducted to greenseerhood at a much younger age than was BR.

So maybe I posted prematurely when I wrote "RIP, "Future Bran."" But I am less convinced now that the Ghost-WeirBran FrostFangs encounter involved "time travel" (wrong term for describing the weirwood experience, I know). Especially if we allow for the possibility that Ghost may bring particular insight of his own to the scene.

I guess we'll just have to keep our eyes open to see where GRRM takes this. (What else is new, eh?)

[Yield.]

Telepathy was probably the wrong word - it was long past my bed-time when I wrote it - the point I was making that the crows are everywhere in this story (literally) and are or were able to communicate way beyond carrying a scrap of parchment from A to B, and this may also be why if Bloodraven and the Crow are indeed one and the same, that the Crow is the avatar used to communicate.

We have another hint of course that there's something funny going on with that "long dead" singer supposedly lurking in a crow which on a normal plane should have hatched rather more recently than she shuffled off her coil.

Right. I think the general assumption is that the talking raven thing was accomplished by skinchangers of both the CotF and the First Men.

There is circumstantial evidence on this. Bran rides/skinchanges the raven in the cave and possibly did so with Mormont's bird when he says 'King. Jon Snow' in ADwD. Also if Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow then he does the same with Bran.

This holds up until we run into the long dead singer's echo within the apparently normal raven. And the evading of BR to Bran's question of is he the 3EC. Add to the Snowfyre's quote of seeing beyond the trees and for me at least, you have to start questioning what is going on here.

I am not sure yet if the corvidae are an avatar or if they are just linked in some way different to the trees that we are yet to learn about. There definitely seems to be more than just the greenseers and the weirnet though.

[Yield.]

I think the Wall does not block warg telepathy. Jon is not a fully-trained skinchanger like Bloodraven or Bran in the cave. That is the simplest reason i can think of.

While I don't think it has to do with training, I do think that you might be on to something here.

Harlan reminded me of the quote that Jon not being able to communicate with Ghost during ASoS was a plot device.This could mean something entirely different.

Perhaps Ghost and Jon couldn't communicate, not because of the Wall but because Ghost was somewhere that blocked the telepathy/mind communication. What if Ghost was in the cave? Or as others have noted in some Otherland during that time apart. Ghost took quite a while in returning to the Wall after Jon's return. Almost as if he had been delayed. When he does return we also see an increase in their abilities.

Another thought is that perhaps Ghost himself created the barrier.

[LynnS]

I'm becoming confused between crows and ravens. Ravens knew the true tongue and could speak to men who once knew the true tongue. Ravens and crows have all been ridden at some point. Some even retain the memory of a singer that one inhabited the bird. Bran's experience seems to suggest that his raven was occupied rather than just a memory of something left behind.

I'm still don't understand how the crows and/or ravens combined constitute a separate collective force from the CotF and the greenseer acting on their own initiative, to influence Bran and Jon.

One quote from Bran's original 3EC dreams stands out for me. When Bran looks into the crow's third eye; he say's it was full of terrible knowledge. At the end of his dream, the crow seems to be chased off ending the dream. The 3EC screaming in fear as Bran regains consciousness.

I'm reminded of Bran dreaming of climbing the broken tower again, climbing up a thousand miles from the earth and he sees two twisted gargoyles whispering to each other. Gargoyles that might have once been lions. He refuses to believe that he can fly. The gargoyles stalk and menace him their eyes glowing red coals.

After rereading the chapter on the weirwood wedding another question concerning the relationship between the Starks, direwolves and the heart tree of Winterfell.

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

Then all at once he was back home again.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell." Brand whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked turning ...

This seems to be the point where Catelyn arrives after the Ned executes Will and the direwolves have just been found. Catelyn is wary of the tree. She senses it watching her.

He is told by Leaf not to call Ned back from the dead. An odd statement as though something like this might be possible. The greenseer tells Bran that it is not possible; that he has tried and that it is just a memory.

Considering that the greenseer stands outside of time and that past, present and future are one; I wonder if things would have been different if Ned had had his own direwolf. Is this why the direwolf is the sigil of House Stark and why the ancestors in the crypt are all associated with a direwolf as companion and guardian. Is this how the Starks of old communicated with the the old gods and the old gods communicated with them? That relationship lost in time until present circumstances.

Brynden explains:

The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And th weirwood ... a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.

I'm starting to think that Bran can do more than just gaze into the past; that he can pass through the gate.

Bran becomes the tree again:

... but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed.

"... let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive ..."

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

Eddard couldn't see Bran and Bran couldn't talk to Eddard; but Jon could. Bran even touches Jon. The only difference, the direwolf. Is Bran the heart tree now? Past, present and future? Did the heart tree always have Bran's face asks Jon. Perhaps Brynden is wrong about the weirwood gate because it is the Starks uniquely who have this relationship with direwolves.

Who would send the direwolves to re-establish this means for communicating with the weirwood if this is outside of BR's experience. Could it have been Bran?

.

[LynnS]

If crows are all liars says Old Nan and the CofF are lying; then it seems to me that the crows are the avatars of the CotF. Not to mention that their hands are birdlike. Three fingers and a thumb with black claws. Bran makes the same observation about his own hands when he wakes up.

I don't know.

[JonNonRegis]

Where does Coldhands fall into this? He's obviously not a normal wight and its explicity stated that he can't pass the gate at the Nightfort (which is made of weirwood).

He's not directly relevant because he never tried to communicate magically across the Wall.

Since he belongs to Club Undead, the ward installed in the Wall, which is widely believed to block wights and probably Popsicles (like the ward at the CotF cave) almost certainly applies to him too.

Note, though, that the ward doesn't block the physical progress of all magical creatures. Obvious examples: Jon, Ghost, Melisandre. For them, what is blocked is magical communication.

[Lord Ravenstark]

While I don't think it has to do with training, I do think that you might be on to something here.

Harlan reminded me of the quote that Jon not being able to communicate with Ghost during ASoS was a plot device.This could mean something entirely different.

Perhaps Ghost and Jon couldn't communicate, not because of the Wall but because Ghost was somewhere that blocked the telepathy/mind communication. What if Ghost was in the cave? Or as others have noted in some Otherland during that time apart. Ghost took quite a while in returning to the Wall after Jon's return. Almost as if he had been delayed. When he does return we also see an increase in their abilities

Another thought is that perhaps Ghost himself created the barrier.

Maybe someone else was riding Ghost... his original rider (BR)?

[Peach Fuzz]

A question to carry on the discussion from Heresy 73.

We have an oddity in this communications business.

Jon, we know, can't sense or communicate with Ghost when both are on different sides of the Wall. GRRM has specifically drawn attention to this small but significant plot device.

So what is significant about it?

We have an apparent contradiction in that the Wall does not impede the Three-Eyed Crow - assumed for the sake of argument to be Bloodraven. As discussed late in Heresy 73 it may have been communicating with Bran through the direwolf known as Summer.

Is the significance that only Ghost cannot communicate across the Wall and is this another pointer to his not being from the same litter and not answering to the gang in the Cave of Skulls?

I have a feeling it is to stop the Starks for whatever reason. Many heresies ago we talked about the original Starks and first men who were able to use ravens by talking with them and maybe direwolves sent out for missions I.e reccy or search and destroy. Maybe it is a defence mechanism put there so the First Starks couldn't directly connect with their beasts north of the wall?

[JonNonRegis]

I'm still don't understand how the crows and/or ravens combined constitute a separate collective force from the CotF and the greenseer acting on their own initiative, to influence Bran and Jon.

Many of us feel the same way on this point.

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

I consider this evidence that, as BR says, Bran cannot communicate with weirwood memories (which, after all, are only memories -- not a two-way radio -- even if weirwoods could talk).

Eddard couldn't see Bran and Bran couldn't talk to Eddard; but Jon could.

Jon and Bran were communicating in the present, via a shared dream. No weirwood memories were involved.

(It seems the same sort of thing happened when Eddard died, which is how Rickon and Bran somehow knew that well before they could have.)

[GoldenVale]

I believe the theory is Jon will warg Ghost while his body is in an ice cell.

Yeah I know but then what? He'll say "oh well" and go prancing off North of the Wall and leave his body behind? I just never bought that.

[King of Winters]

If crows are all liars says Old Nan and the CofF are lying; then it seems to me that the crows are the avatars of the CotF. Not to mention that their hands are birdlike. Three fingers and a thumb with black claws. Bran makes the same observation about his own hands when he wakes up.

I don't know.

That would also make Bloodraven a liar as he was once a "crow" in the NW.

[Peach Fuzz]

That would also make Bloodraven a liar as he was once a "crow" in the NW.

I for one am suspiscious of BR to the extent that what he showed Bran in the heart of winter may be a planted image so he can actually get Bran to do hes bidding

[King of Winters]

I for one am suspiscious of BR to the extent that what he showed Bran in the heart of winter may be a planted image so he can actually get Bran to do hes bidding

We'd need to know what the Heart of Winter actually is though. It's been speculated on before. I am still not sure what it completely is yet.

[Peach Fuzz]

We'd need to know what the Heart of Winter actually is though. It's been speculated on before. I am still not sure what is completely is yet.

I agree and BR's actuall motive and that of TCOtF so far the WW who are portrayed as the main enemy have not been mentioned

[Black Crow]

I believe the theory is Jon will warg Ghost while his body is in an ice cell.

Mayhaps, but as theories go, given that Jon was last seen falling over while leaking blood from multiple wounds, its very much an idle speculation.

[Seanathan]

Hello. First time posting on Heresy, but been following for quite a while. As to the communication being blocked by the wall but BR and Bran being able to, has anyone considered where they were as the source of the communication? Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell and underground. BR is in a cave of the COTF and underground. They weren't communicating through the wall but rather underneath it OR there is a connection between Winterfell's crypts and north of the wall.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Well, I'm pretty new around here - so I honestly appreciate the reminder about reading character claims carefully. (Still learning what this "heresy" approach is all about.). That said - I'm not sure the examples of Ned and Theon contradict Bloodraven's claim. Ned's scene is in the past, but we don't know what he actually hears when Bran speaks. In Theon's case, we do have access to Theon's POV:

But in this case, we know that Bran is already greenseeing - contemporaneously. Bran's last POV in ADwD is Chapter 34... Theon hears his name whispered under Winterfell's heart tree in Chapter 37 ("The Prince of Winterfell"). So BR's denial of greenseers' ability to change the past doesn't really apply.

Still - your point about BR speaking from his own experience is well taken, and there are many reasons Bran's experience and potential as a greenseer could be different. The two that stand out to me are the facts that (1) a fundamental premise of this narrative is that old powers and magic are returning to the world after long absence; and (2) Bran is inducted to greenseerhood at a much younger age than was BR.

So maybe I posted prematurely when I wrote "RIP, "Future Bran."" But I am less convinced now that the Ghost-WeirBran FrostFangs encounter involved "time travel" (wrong term for describing the weirwood experience, I know). Especially if we allow for the possibility that Ghost may bring particular insight of his own to the scene.

I guess we'll just have to keep our eyes open to see where GRRM takes this. (What else is new, eh?)

BR also says something like the past, present and future are one to the weirwoods so it wouldnt be any sort of time travel. Of course, grain of salt, but he's either telling the truth there or exaggerating to recruit Bran.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Yeah I know but then what? He'll say "oh well" and go prancing off North of the Wall and leave his body behind? I just never bought that.

Oh Im not buying that either. Lol.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Mayhaps, but as theories go, given that Jon was last seen falling over while leaking blood from multiple wounds, its very much an idle speculation.

Oh of course.