Revisiting the valonqar from Maggy the frog's prophecy

[thewingedwolf]

Good afternoon,

Upon reading (and re-reading) Maggy the frog's prophecy regarding Cersei, a theory dawned upon me and I want to put it before the Forums for discussion and analysis. Of the many current threads going around regarding the valonqar, there seems to be an assumption that he (or she) will be actively participating in choking the life out of Cersei.

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Based on the quote it seems like a reasonnable assumption to make, however I would like to submit another theory. I believe that the valonqar will be Tommen and that, when he dies he will cause Cersei to drown in tears and then to commit suicide.

First off, the initial part of the quote part of the prophecy mentions "When your tears have drowned you" this, to me, clearly indicates that prior to Cersei's life being choked from her, she will be in considerable pain. In the case of our dear Lannister queen regent, I can think of no greater pain than to see yet another one of her children die before her eyes.

We also know from her other actions that when grief striken, Cersei is prone to very irrational acts (i.e. burning down the tower of the hand, etc.) which is likely to occur again at the time of Tommen's death. Therefore, it is my belief that the valonqar will not be a willing participant in the life of Cersei being "choked" from her but rather the "choking" of Cersei's life will be the consequence of an event involving the valonqar (i.e. Tommen), in this case, his death.

Thoughts?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I believe it's a good idea and is as credible as any other theory surrounding the prophecy. At this point, we don't know what will happen, and I like this idea better than the idea of Jaime or Tyrion killing her.

Due to Tyrion's comment,

“I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid.”

it is widely assumed that Tyrion, also being the "little brother", will commit the act. I feel that if that were the case Cersei wouldn't be killed while sad (as the prophecy foretells), but while happy (which seems to be Tyrion's wish).

It could be that Tyrion indirectly causing the death of Tommen and Cersei's paranoia surrounding Tyrion (due to his comments and actions), will cause her to believe that Tyrion is responsible for Tommen's death and therefore fulfilled the prophecy. She could then harm herself in her grief, which means Tommen's death (as Joffrey and Myrcella's little brother) is what truly caused her death. I like that idea. :)

[thewingedwolf]

Thanks! :cheers:

I think at the point she has reached now, Cersei is on the verge of breaking down and something like that would definitely push her to suicide.

[Drexyon7]

I think fire will ultimately be her downfall it matches the choking (asphyxiation from the smoke) and ashes in your mouth line Tyrion delivers.

I have no idea who the valonqar will be...maybe Aegon

[thewingedwolf]

I think fire will ultimately be her downfall it matches the choking (asphyxiation from the smoke) and ashes in your mouth line Tyrion delivers.

I have no idea who the valonqar will be...maybe Aegon

Well since valonqar means "little brother" in high valyrian I would say that the two likelier candidates are Tyrion and Tommen.

[Drexyon7]

Well since valonqar means "little brother" in high valyrian I would say that the two likelier candidates are Tyrion and Tommen.

Aegon is a "little brother". Cersei has so many enemies it's fun to speculate this part of the prophecy.

[thewingedwolf]

Aegon is a "little brother". Cersei has so many enemies it's fun to speculate this part of the prophecy.

As I mentioned in the OP, I think it will be, albeit unknowingly, Tommen. The difference IMO is the first part of the prophecy. At this point i the story, only the loss of a child could make Cersei "drown in tears".

Edit: It really is fun to speculate given the wide list of suspects available.

[DigitalCount]

I'd say it's Tommen too--but because he chokes her to death as a wight. As for why Tommen, it's because the "valonqar" prophecy is part of the "will we have children" answer, meaning that the valonqar is one of her children: specifically, the younger brother.

[Crimsonsmile]

Valonqar: well what if it isn't Tyrion, Jaime, or Tommen. I submit an alternative theory, what if the one who kills her is Arya. I mean why say Valonqar when you could just as easily say little brother. The reason why I think it's Arya is because the faceless men speak a little Valyrian, while the Lannisters are never known to have spoke the language. Being that she's on her prayer kill list adds motive into her wanting to kill her. Also the phrase could be subjective in that she is like a little brother in the guild of faceless men.

[newbieone]

I'm surprised that almost nobody seems to make much of the fact that valonqar is the sole odd Valyrian word. It may perhaps be that the purpose is to obscure the gender and put Arya in the picture (who pretends to be a boy much of the time anyway), but I think it's more likely that the valonqar is someone with a Valyrian identity. Tyrion would make sense if Aerys had been his father like some people think, but that's a wild guess with little proof.

Aegon, if real, would be the youngest of Elia's children, but I don't think his dead sister was significant enough. And it's likely Aegon is fake, given the difficulty for Varys to predict what would have been done to the boy (or a wild shot substituting a non-Valyrian child?). Jon, if really Rhaegar's, would be his father's youngest child and the younger brother of the dead princess and real Aegon, but otherwise he'd make little sense as a little brother unless perhaps in comparison to Robb. But there's nothing Valyrian about Robb. Or even Jon, for that matter.

Like someone said in some other thread, the Second Sons could perhaps be good candidates for a metaphorical Valonqar and possibly metaphorical choking. Also like someone said choking was rather intimate, therefore a common mercenary would have little business choking Cersei.

Tyrion as a serving Second Son would make a double 'little brother', triple even with his size and quadruple if he had any Valyrian connection by the time the choking took place, so I wouldn't be surprised. If GRRM wanted to surprise the readers more than he wants to surprise Cersei, the painfully obvious Tyrion could be a better choice than Jaime The Younger Twin. Both of them lack Valyrian connections, though.

On the other hand, for anybody with a real Valyrian connection it wouldn't make sense to choke Cersei literally. She hasn't even given the Targs any particular reason to want to kill her other than judicial punishment after being put on trial. Judicial death penalty wouldn't be carried out by choking or by the king or queen in person.

Arya is another one who'd probably use Needle rather than choke Cersei manually — again like someone has already said in one of the threads.

As for a metaphorical valonqar, it can make sense given that the tears drowning Cersei must be metaphorical. She can't literally drown in her own tears. Even if she could drown in her own tears, then there would be no life left to choke out of her. Therefore the prophecy is largely metaphorical.

Pale white throat, I think, is associated with drowning (cf. unCat's curdled milk skin). If everything were metaphorical up to that point, i.e. the drowning in tears, the drowning (i.e. to death) itself, the pale white throat, then the choking of life out of Cersei definitely doesn't need to be a literal death by suffocation, and the wrapping of hands doesn't either.

But then it makes sense for Cersei to die in a dramatic fashion, so it still might be literal. A different method of death occurring around the same time would make the prophecy look bad. Nor do I think mercy choking, another possibility someone else has already mentioned in the previous threads, would be probable. I can't really see wrapping hands around someone's throat and choking her as a convenient method of mercy killing.

Edit: One more thing, or two. 1. Other than the sole Valyrian word, the prophecy was delivered in Westerosi, it wasn't a translation. Thus I think the the personal pronoun ('his') pretty much excludes a female valonqar unless the speaker herself didn't know the valonqar's gender. 2. The definite article before 'valonqar' suggests a specific, relevant valonqar, not just someone who happens to be a little brother to someone. It is the little brother. Using 'the little brother' for 'your little brother' would be somewhat unnatural in native English. It sounds more like the little brother in a relevant set of siblings. A set of central importance (e.g. Aerys's children or Cersei's own children), in line with the definite article.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well since valonqar means "little brother" in high valyrian I would say that the two likelier candidates are Tyrion and Tommen.

Jaime is also her little brother, strictly speaking. There's a narrative reason why she's the oldest.

Also we don't know that valonqar is gender-neutral. We know that the Valyrian word for "dragon" is, but I'm not sure why people assume that all Valyrian words are or that that Valyrian word is. And given that Maggy explicitly uses the pronoun "his," I think it's safe to say that we are, in fact, dealing with a dude.

The entire prophecy is pretty straightforward and I think people overcomplicate it. Cersei thinks the younger, more beautiful queen/another is Margaery, and it will be someone else. She thinks Tyrion is the valonqar, and it will be someone else. I think that's twist enough: She spends years thinking it's Tyrion, whom she despises and treats horribly, and in fact it'll end up being Jaime, the one person she thinks she knows would never hurt her. That's fucking Shakespearen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I love this prophecy & like the rest of you have pondered over who the volanquar will be. I like the idea of it being Tommen in one way or another because it fits. Like a poster above said Maggy was answering the question about the children when she said this.

Anyone know who Roberts youngest bastard son is? I'm not sure how that would fit into the story but just curious.

I have also thought long & hard to figure away around all Cersei's children dying. Does a shroud have to mean they died? I read a definition of shroud once that said something along the lines of "something to protect".

I think the "gold shall be their crowns" could have a double meaning in that they will all be crowned & they all have gold hair. Why not the shroud part? Did Joffrey have a funeral shroud? Was it gold? Maybe the golden shroud for Myrcella &/or Tommen is something that protects them?

Sorry I'm rambling. Like I said I love this prophecy! Very thought provoking.

[DipMeInGoldAndCallMeAegor]

Why not the shroud part? Did Joffrey have a funeral shroud? Was it gold? Maybe the golden shroud for Myrcella &/or Tommen is something that protects them?

I think the golden shroud thing means that all of them will live as royalty, and all of them will die as royalty, not necessarily a literal golden shroud.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I think the golden shroud thing means that all of them will live as royalty, and all of them will die as royalty, not necessarily a literal golden shroud.

But how does shroud fit that? I'm not being argumentative I'm genuinely curious. A shroud doesn't really mean royalty

[Dorian Martell]

Well since valonqar means "little brother" in high valyrian I would say that the two likelier candidates are Tyrion and Tommen.

Or Stannis, or Gendry, or Ederic, or Loras, or Edmure, or Rickon, or Willas, or Theon, or Lyn Corbray or a whole host of "Little Brothers"

[DipMeInGoldAndCallMeAegor]

But how does shroud fit that? I'm not being argumentative I'm genuinely curious. A shroud doesn't really mean royalty

The shroud represents their royal deaths after receiving their royal crownings. I figured "gold" meant royalty (and Lannister hairdos), so then the children would all live as royalty after being 'crowned', and would die as royalty and be buried in gold 'shrouds'

At least that was my interpretation. I could be entirely wrong, of course.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

The shroud represents their royal deaths after receiving their royal crownings. I figured "gold" meant royalty (and Lannister hairdos), so then the children would all live as royalty after being 'crowned', and would die as royalty and be buried in gold 'shrouds'

At least that was my interpretation. I could be entirely wrong, of course.

I understand what you are saying now. I really hope sweet Myrcella & Tommen live though :)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Or Stannis, or Gendry, or Ederic, or Loras, or Edmure, or Rickon, or Willas, or Theon, or Lyn Corbray or a whole host of "Little Brothers"

Not all of them have reason to strangle Cersei. Though it would be interesting if it turned out to be someone who has no specific grudge against her and is just a psycho.

Willas is the oldest so he's out. Edric too because he doesn't seem to have any siblings. Not sure about Corbray.

[Dorian Martell]

I meant Garlan, and Ederic is the younger brother of Mya and Gendry, and Lyn is the younger brother of Lionel

[The brown snake]

Lets not forget that technically Jamie is also her 'little brother' and in a DWD he didn't want to help her.