Who instructed Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion?

[Lord_Tyrell]

So this hasn't exactly been resolved yet, but I think we can narrow it down to three candidates:

1) Joffrey- Joffrey loathed his uncle, and the Kingsguard had to follow his every whim. It makes sense that Joffrey would instruct Mandon to kill him. But honestly I don't see it, for the sole reason is it would have already been conveyed to the audience. Joffrey doing it at this point would add nothing to the plot.

2) Cersei- Before Feast of Crows, I thought it was certainly her, because she had every motive and reason to kill Tyrion. But wouldn't Cersei have thought about it repeatably on how Ser Mandon failed her to rid him of Tyrion. Plus I think she'd use one of the Kettlebecks over Ser Mandon.

3) Littlefinger- the front runner in my opinion, especially since it could still add to the plot. Littlefinger is terrified of Tyrion and he thinks is the one person who can undermine his plans and see through them. Littlefinger has tried to dispose of Tyrion from the start of the series. Mandon Moore is from the Vale and was appointed by Jon Arryn... but we know that some of his appointments were due to manipulation from those around him, and that both Robert and Jon really despised Ser Mandon. Littlefinger was the one who manipulated Jon to bring him to court, and this Ser Mandon has been in his pocket ever since. Littlefinger instructed him to kill him at Blackwater whenever he got the chance, but unfortunately for him, Ser Mandon was slain, but he still had a newly appointed Kingsguard in his pocket regardless.

So what do you guys think?

[Blede]

I think it was Littlefinger. I also think he's having Ser Boros Blount poisoned (Kevan thinks he is ill during the ADWD epilogue chapter) to place another man of his in the Kingsguard (Ser Osmund is in the black cells, and he also told Sansa the white cloak changed him and that Osmund is no longer reliable, so he needs another pawn near the King).

[Ser Areo Mace]

I believe Ser Mandon acted alone.

[Jory Cassel]

For completeness, you should include the one in which Mandon acted on his own, because Tyrion was responsible - more or less - for the death of Vardis Egen, a knight Moore respected. At least that's the one I buy into.

eta: Ser Areo Mace beat me to it

[THElogic]

I think Littlefinger was Joffery's henchman. Joff would conspire with LF and LF would carry out the plans as he saw fit. If LF had common interest with the king, it was to his benefit. Having Tyrion around definitely cramped LF's style but got under the volatile Joffery's skin more.

[Lord_Tyrell]

For completeness, you should include the one in which Mandon acted on his own, because Tyrion was responsible - more or less - for the death of Vardis Egen, a knight Moore respected. At least that's the one I buy into.

eta: Ser Areo Mace beat me to it

Never heard of that. I still think there's something more significant than that.

[Jon of the Dead]

Yes, I think it's Littlefinger. Tyrion was a huge liability, especially because he knew about the dagger and practically told Littlefinger as much (that was so clumsy, now that I think about it).

And as the OP says, there's the connection to the Vale, as Varys says:

"You might find some kin if you turned over enough stones back in the Vale, but here . . . Lord Arryn brought him to King’s Landing and Robert gave him his white cloak, but neither loved him much, I fear."

This sounds pretty similar (minus the white cloak part) to what Varys said to Ned about Ser Hugh but meaning Littlefinger. How convenient that Jon Arryn brought Petyr and Mandon from the Vale, and probably around the same time too.

[pamparius]

Could have been Varys. He'd be clever enough to realize that Tyrion would more than likely pin it on Cersei, and, Moore was something of a flunky for Cersei at the time. This drives a wedge between the Lannister siblings, isolating both of them - But especially Cersei, who is much easier to manipulate and prone to making rash decisions. It eventually drives Tyrion into the twisting plots of Varys and Illyrio.

LF seems fairly unconcerned about Tyrion's presence, IIRC. Doesn't he spend most of Tyrion's time there away at either Renly's camp or the Vale?

[Lord_Tyrell]

No way Varys was responsible. Ser Mandon was clearly trying to kill Tyrion, and Varys needed Tyrion for dragon taming, and meant to have him guide Dany and Aegon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I also think Baelish is a pretty likely suspect. I know the show blames it on Joffrey, but it wouldn't be the first thing it pinned on him that he didn't do. I think if it was actually either Joffrey or Cersei, the truth of it would have come out by now. Cersei, to my knowledge, never thinks of giving Moore the order, nor do I think that at that time, she would have gone so far as to try to have him killed.

[MasterJack]

Each time Varys told someone he is competant, this person die or almost die 10sec latter. Varys is the greatest liar in Westeros and when he compliment you, you better hide yourself.

[pamparius]

No way Varys was responsible. Ser Mandon was clearly trying to kill Tyrion, and Varys needed Tyrion for dragon taming, and meant to have him guide Dany and Aegon.

True, but, as we've seen Vary's and Illyrio's plans rarely go according to... plan. They've changed and adapted with the circumstances as they come (switching from YG To Viserys to Dany, etc).I don't think it's that far of a stretch, but, like any theory, it has its holes. :P

[Lord_Tyrell]

Cersei, to my knowledge, never thinks of giving Moore the order, nor do I think that at that time, she would have gone so far as to try to have him killed.

I think she would have, not for her hatred of him, but the fact that he threatened Tommen for a whore.

[Jon of the Dead]

True, but, as we've seen Vary's and Illyrio's plans rarely go according to... plan. They've changed and adapted with the circumstances as they come (switching from YG To Viserys to Dany, etc).I don't think it's that far of a stretch, but, like any theory, it has its holes. :P

Varys had no reason to kill Tyrion back then. In fact it was the opposite: Varys needed the Lannisters to win the Battle of Blackwater so the war could last longer.

[Lord_Tyrell]

LF seems fairly unconcerned about Tyrion's presence, IIRC. Doesn't he spend most of Tyrion's time there away at either Renly's camp or the Vale?

You're thinking of the show. He goes to Highgarden once Renly is dead in the books.

And of course he's concerned about Tyrion. I'd actually say that Littlefinger is scared shitless if him. Littlefinger tries to use Cat to take him out at the start of the series before he's even a factor really. Littlefinger knew it was a manner of time before Tyrion's father had to reluctantly admit his promise and send him to King's Landing in some office. Littlefinger needed to make sure that didn't happen by killing Tyrion off indirectly.

Then his fears come to pass and Tyrion comes to court as Hand of the King. He barely gets by with the skin of his teeth, and he then uses Tyrion sparing him in order to kill him. That fails as well.

Then Littlefinger uses Tyrion as a scapegoat and frame him for a murder he himself commits. And Tyrion escapes again.

Tyrion is the only person who sees right through Littlefinger's ploy and can see him for the threat he is. And even at this point, Tyrion is still the biggest threat to Littlefinger, having a marriage to his own protégée and will soon have dragons under his control. They will meet again.

[pamparius]

You're thinking of the show. He goes to Highgarden once Renly is dead in the books.

And of course he's concerned about Tyrion. I'd actually say that Littlefinger is scared shitless if him. Littlefinger tries to use Cat to take him out at the start of the series before he's even a factor really. Littlefinger knew it was a manner of time before Tyrion's father had to reluctantly admit his promise and send him to King's Landing in some office. Littlefinger needed to make sure that didn't happen by killing Tyrion off indirectly.

Then his fears come to pass and Tyrion comes to court as Hand of the King. He barely gets by with the skin of his teeth, and he then uses Tyrion sparing him in order to kill him. That fails as well.

Then Littlefinger uses Tyrion as a scapegoat and frame him for a murder he himself commits. And Tyrion escapes again.

Tyrion is the only person who sees right through Littlefinger's ploy and can see him for the threat he is. And even at this point, Tyrion is still the biggest threat to Littlefinger, having a marriage to his own protégée and will soon have dragons under his control. They will meet again.

Good points, those. I would have to agree you're right that it's far more likely to have been at LF's behest. My only question is why would Moore go a long with what LF tells him? It's been a while since I've read the books (i've only reread Dance in the last 6-7 months) so it's possible I've forgotten something(s).

[danm_999]

Littlefinger makes the most sense as a culprit.

Cersei seems unlikely to me as;

A ) She never, ever reflects on the incident in her POV's later (and she reflects on all her other assassinations), which would be an odd omission because she's obssessed with the idea of killing Tyrion, and

B ) Whatever else she might believe, she still has strong reason to believe Tyrion will kill Tommen if anything else happens to him (Tyrion's explicit threat). For her to send an assassin after Tyrion before Tommen is back in her control seems reckless for even her.

For me personally, the moment when Littlefinger decided to kill Tyrion ASAP was here;

“Lysa is more tractable than Catelyn, true . . . but also more fearful, and I understand she hates you.”
“She believes she has good reason. When I was her guest in the Eyrie, she insisted that I’d murdered her husband, and was not inclined to listen to denials.” He leaned forward. “If I gave her Jon Arryn’s true killer, she might think more kindly of me.”

That made Littlefinger sit up. “True killer? I confess, you make me curious. Who do you propose?”

It was Tyrion’s turn to smile. “Gifts I give my friends, freely. Lysa Arryn would need to understand that.”

Tyrion has here stumbled inadvertantly onto a very nasty secret that could completely undo Littlefinger, and his delivery makes it seem not just like he knows, but that he's sending Littlefinger a veiled threat (remember the way Tyrion describes Varys threatening him as how King's Landing politics unfolds, or the way Littlefinger offers Tyrion the dagger used to try and kill Bran).

At this point, I have to imagine Littlefinger became very concerned about exactly what went on behind closed doors in the Eyrie where Tyrion was supposed to be arrested and executed but...wasn't. He went up with Catelyn Stark, but came down whole and unharmed, knowing lord knows what. Maybe Lysa didn't betray him directly, but he has to know by now Lysa is a bit of a sot and a fool, and what she let slip to Tyrion and/or Catelyn might have lit a fire that would consume his plans.

As to the how, I look back at the conversation Varys has with Tyrion;

“Sadly,” said Varys, “oh, sadly. You might find some kin if you turned over enough stones back in the Vale, but here . . . Lord Arryn brought him to King’s Landing and Robert gave him his white cloak, but neither loved him much, I fear.

So here's the riddle. Jon Arryn brought him to King's Landing, and Robert gave him a white cloak, but neither loved him much. So how did he get this incredible ride? He's a good warrior from a noble House, sure, but we've not seen anything to suggest the Moores are politically important enough to merit a white cloak, and the Kingsguard are a purely political office in Robert's day (how else do people like Blount get on there otherwise).

So who has the ear of Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon? Well, towards the end of ASoS, we get from two sources the dirt on who exactly was running the show behind the scenes in King's Landing.

Lady Lysa ignored that. “Cat never gave you anything. It was me who got you your first post, who made Jon bring you to court so we could be close to one another. You promised me you would never forget that.

“Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds.” Stannis narrowed his eyes. “Do not trifle with me, my lord. I saw the proof Jon Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king you would have lost more than your office, I promise you, but Robert shrugged away your little lapses. ‘They all steal,’ I recall him saying. ‘Better a thief we know than one we don’t, the next man might be worse.’ Lord Petyr’s words in my brother’s mouth, I’ll warrant.

To my mind, this paints a pretty clear picture. Littlefinger, using Lysa, got Jon Arryn to bring Mandon Moore to court. Littlefinger, using Robert, got him into a white cloak. Mandon Moore was the perfect catspaw for Littlefinger. Sober, stoic, a fierce fighter, and his position granted entirely by Littlefinger.

The more I look at it, the more I cannot unsee the connection between Moore and the way we know Littlefinger likes to run assets.

Bronn had turned up all he could on Ser Mandon, but no doubt Varys knew a deal more . . . should he choose to share it. “The man seems
to have been quite friendless,” Tyrion said carefully.
“Sadly,” said Varys, “oh, sadly.

He smiled sadly. “All he did he did at my behest. I dared not befriend you openly. When I heard how you saved his life at Joff’s tourney, I knew he would be the perfect
catspaw.”

“There’s a clever girl.” He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds. “When the Imp sent off her guards, the queen had Ser Lancel hire sellswords for her. Lancel found her the Kettleblacks, which delighted your little lord husband, since the lads were in his pay through his man Bronn.” He chuckled. “But it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King’s Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords. Three hidden daggers, Alayne, now perfectly placed.”

[Castellan]

I just happen to have been re-reading the part where Tyrion asks Varus about it and I think Varys makes it pretty clear that its Littlefinger. There are a couple of other times he waits to see if Tyrion will pick up that Littlefinger was behind something or other. I suppose he's got a mixed agenda - probably can't stand Littlefinger but thinks on the whole thinks he's doing a good job causing chaos, wouldn't be terribly put out if Tyrion realised it was Littlefinger but sees no need to tell him straight out.

By the way, does Varys ever tell straight out lies to his masters or does he just present the evidence knowing they won't get it? I mean, he may suspect that Littlefinger was behind it but he can't know it. So he tells Tyrion exactly what he knows. Are there any examples of flat out lies?

[Castellan]

Good points, those. I would have to agree you're right that it's far more likely to have been at LF's behest. My only question is why would Moore go a long with what LF tells him? It's been a while since I've read the books (i've only reread Dance in the last 6-7 months) so it's possible I've forgotten something(s).

I think the implication is that it is Littlefinger who sponsored him, got Jon Arryn to send him to court, etc, same as the Kettleblacks. I suppose its possible that once a white cloak he could dump his sponsor, but its a bit dangerous, and Littlefinger may have somthing on him.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Good points, those. I would have to agree you're right that it's far more likely to have been at LF's behest. My only question is why would Moore go a long with what LF tells him? It's been a while since I've read the books (i've only reread Dance in the last 6-7 months) so it's possible I've forgotten something(s).

Because Littlefinger got him his post, and thus he is at Littlefinger's command.