Scott Lynch’s The Republic of Thieves.. SPOILERS

[trickster]

I felt the same way. As a rival, Sabetha is great. But as a love interest she's just annoying and Locke is total idiot around her, even after so many years. One would think he gain some maturity over time. Perhaps the mystery surrounding his past explains this, but right now it's just odd and confusing.

One problem I have with the parent/daughter theory is that if Sabetha really is Locke's daughter, would he really feel such strong romantic interest in her? Maybe as a child, he just didn't understand the nature of his feelings, thought it was romantic love, and that's carried over through the years. But the theory is kind of creepy if it's true.

My thoughts exactly. But Patience may have played that angle and convinced Sabetha though. It does not have to be true. But as long as Sabetha believes that it works. I am also not sure why Patience wanted to separate Sabetha and Locke AFTER they had already played their part and helped her eliminate her opponent fraction. Just revenge?

[Angeleyes]

Riffing off of the ideas that Sabetha is Locke's Daughter, and she has a tragic fate..

It is worth noting the roles that they played in RoT and the fates of those characters. Lynch could have written about them performing A Midsummer Night's dream if he wanted, but he didn't.

So I'm just going to point out key events in the hope that they are either foreshadowing, or somehow relevant, and excuse any typos in character names please :). Worth noting is that the love story seems close enough to Romeo and Juliet that it is semi generic.

Spoilers because wall of text in bullet point form (damn engineers can't make paragraphs).

1 Sabetha knew she would be Amadin. She called it.

• Amedin is a good thief/princess
  
  • Fits with 'daughter of 5 ringed mage'?
    
  
  
• Amedin has an older protector (nurse figure from Romeo+Juliet)
  
• Protector is later overruled
  
  • Patience, during the early years??
    
  
  
• She knew who she was. She was always herself.
  

2 Contrast Locke, who begins the play as Ferrin, but through meddling becomes Aurin (Iron into Gold, transmutation imagery...)

• Does this speak to Lamor Acanthus taking over Locke's destiny?
  
• Perhaps the opposite will occur in the story, Locke begins as Sabetha's love, but his part is switched midway through rehearsal (say book 3, by patience?)
  
• I prefer the idea that through meddling with 'the dark arts' Lamor Acanthus turned the young man (Ferrin Locke) into something better/larger/more perfect (Aurin Locke) and destroyed himself in the process.
  
  • The noble died in Fire, Locke seems to be forged in Catchfire (oh man what a stretch)
    
  
  

3 External Circumstances Force Amedin to kill herself lest Aurin kill her

• Motive for Locke finally gaining 'Wisdom', which stated 2-3 times during the book is the 'moral' of the play, that the great tragedy lead Aurin to be most wise/ a good king.
  
• Similar situation to how Locke and Jean find themselves at the end of RSURS.
  
• Foretells a situation where Locke 'must lose', which serves as a great counterpoint to his earliest vow in this book in response to Sabetha's fake suicide "I will never lose again"
  
  • Worth noting that 'The Magician' is the character who forces this scenario on Aurin. Falconer is the likely choice here, however I prefer the Eldren-Killers as the culprit.
    
  • I want to say something about how Falconers slip up in the first book was attempting to kill Locke, as opposed to checkmate him. If Locke is really a 'golden character', perhaps he is lucky enough to escape these near death situations. This is mostly a half formed thought for someone else to try to complete....
    
  
  

[BLU-RAY]

Finished it last night. I liked it better than RSURS, but not as much as TLoLL. I thought it was solid - but where the flashbacks in Lies were pure worldbuilding joy, these are more in the form of character-building, and therefore appeal to my particular preferences slightly less. I liked getting to know Karthain a little, though we certainly didn't see it rendered like Camorr or Tal Verrar, and I'm always interested in the secrets and metaphysics of the world, so alchemy, magic, Bondsmagi, and the Eldren are always interesting. I didn't really enjoy the Falconer's return, as he's kind of a douche, but we'll see how long he persists.

I'm definitely interested to learn more about what Sabetha saw in that painting - her parents do seem possible, though that could easily be by dint of good Magi research rather than by being born to Locke pre-necromantic experiments.

I'm also interested to see what, exactly, the Bondsmagi are planning on doing next; and I'm interested to learn more about the Eldren, etc., though I doubt we'll get a ton of information on that front.

[Adept Havelock]

I'm with the majority in that while I thought it was a very solid and enjoyable book, I wasn't fond of the new writing structure. The small complete short story interludes managed to flesh out the world and the characters much better than the two interlocking novels of RotT did. The other major problem was the lack of importance of the election, all the characters didn't really care about it and it failed to generate any drama.

By the way having read the whole thread now no-one seems to agree with my interpretation of why Sabetha left. I don't think it's because shes his reincarnated wife or daughter it's simply because she looks very similar to his ex-wife. Throughout the book Sabetha always had a problem with Locke loving her because it was expected (you only love me because I'm a redhead, you only love me because I'm living 10 feet from you, you only love me because I'm the only girl you can ever tel all your secrets to etc.), now she finds out the reason Locke has been obsessed with her to such a degree is because she looks like his dead wife from a previous life. You can see why she believes Patience's tale, Locke isn't a normal man in love, he's been utterly obsessed with her from the age of 6 to the point of having no romantic or sexual feelings about any other person for over 20 years.

[MinDonner]

It is worth noting the roles that they played in RoT and the fates of those characters. Lynch could have written about them performing A Midsummer Night's dream if he wanted, but he didn't.

This is a good point which I'd forgotten about after the book went in a different direction - but, I was totally expecting the events in Karthain to mirror the play in some way, ie. Sabetha sabotaging herself in order to save the man she loves. So there is a good chance that this may in fact be saved for later in the series.

[john]

By the way having read the whole thread now no-one seems to agree with my interpretation of why Sabetha left. I don't think it's because shes his reincarnated wife or daughter it's simply because she looks very similar to his ex-wife. Throughout the book Sabetha always had a problem with Locke loving her because it was expected (you only love me because I'm a redhead, you only love me because I'm living 10 feet from you, you only love me because I'm the only girl you can ever tel all your secrets to etc.), now she finds out the reason Locke has been obsessed with her to such a degree is because she looks like his dead wife from a previous life. You can see why she believes Patience's tale, Locke isn't a normal man in love, he's been utterly obsessed with her from the age of 6 to the point of having no romantic or sexual feelings about any other person for over 20 years.

Yes. I was surprised by all the theories on here about resurrection, or being Locke's daughter or whatever. For me all it was was she saw the dude who may or may not be Locke is into redheads. That by itself was enough to freak her out. She is not the most stable of people at the best of times.

[unJon]

Haven't seen speculation on this yet: why did Sabetha have to fake her death on leaving the Thiefmaker? For awhile I thought this was just due to her redhead story but that doesn't really make sense. She had been hiding her hair color (at Thiefmaker's insistence) the whole time. Was someone looking for her? Bondsmagi investigating the Coldfire plague?

[The hairy bear]

no-one seems to agree with my interpretation of why Sabetha left. I don't think it's because shes his reincarnated wife or daughter it's simply because she looks very similar to his ex-wife. Throughout the book Sabetha always had a problem with Locke loving her because it was expected (you only love me because I'm a redhead, you only love me because I'm living 10 feet from you, you only love me because I'm the only girl you can ever tel all your secrets to etc.), now she finds out the reason Locke has been obsessed with her to such a degree is because she looks like his dead wife from a previous life.

Just when Locke and Sabetha they resume their love story, Patience stops it saying: "if you two hadn't rekindled your private affair, I could have postponed telling you the truth". Why? If it's just Sabetha ressembling a dead woman, why would Patience interfere? What's in it for her?

In the same scene, Patience also says directly to Sabetha: "I know the reason, you see, why he's dreamed of redheaded women".

So Sabetha already knew that Acanthus' dead wife was redheaded. Patience had already implied that Sabetha locked like her and that's why Locke was obsessed with her. And still, she was happy to be with Locke after the election, as lovers. Then, she sees a picture and disappears. Without even leaving a letter. It wouldn't make sense.

If she's the daughter, everything fits. Both Patience's interference and Sabetha's reaction.

Haven't seen speculation on this yet: why did Sabetha have to fake her death on leaving the Thiefmaker?

I would say that the Thiefmaker faked the death of all the children he sold to Chains. With Locke it was the same: he oficially "killed him" to broke the secret peace.

If the orphans knew that the Thiefmaker was selling kids away, they may rebel against him. And Chains wouldn't want to be openly known that he was recruiting former thieves tp serve as initates of Perelandro.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Re: Sabetha's faked death with the Thiefmaker - We know that Locke and Sabetha are very similar in terms of thieving and false-facing and even audacity. Thiefmaker gave Locke to Chains as a last resort after buying his death. I think Sabetha (again, remember that Thiefmaker compares Locke to her when he sells Locke to Chains) was someone who did too much or maybe too well. She contravened his authority in some way, so he faked her death and sent her to Chains to preserve his own authority.

I enjoyed the book. I agree with the others that it wasn't as good as LoLL, and in particular the structure of the book didn't work all that well for me. Each chapter started slow and built to the end, so at the end of every chapter we had to break immersion and tension to go to the other story.

I didn't mind the actual story of the ROT segment - I just think it could have been structurally better.

[BigFatCoward]

I was hoping for some nitty-gritty, in-depth dirty electioneering, or maybe a really twisty long-con. Instead what we got was what essentially amounts to a prank war

my feelings exactly, ooooh, he put snakes down the chimney, i thought they were all great schemers!

also, i'm a genius, i look for weaknesses in my opponents, i think i'll have a junkie as one of my top men, he wont be vulnerable to my plans.

it was just all very very shit, there must be an inbuilt reason for locke being in love with sabetha, cos she is an annoying, childish twat. i'd expect 7 year olds to be more emotionally mature.

[john]

Just when Locke and Sabetha they resume their love story, Patience stops it saying: "if you two hadn't rekindled your private affair, I could have postponed telling you the truth". Why? If it's just Sabetha ressembling a dead woman, why would Patience interfere? What's in it for her?

What's in it for her to stop an affair between the reincarnation of Lamor Acanthus and his non biological daughter? Why should she care?

It seems to me that that whole scene was just to prompt the exceptionalists to act. Patience knows they're watching via Coldmarrow and right after that they decide to make their move at the end of the election.

And I don't think that Sabetha did pick up on any implications about Acanthus' wife until she actually saw the painting.

[unJon]

And I don't think that Sabetha did pick up on any implications about Acanthus' wife until she actually saw the painting.

I disagree. When Patience first breaks them up she says she can explain why Locke likes redheads and guess hat color his wife's hair was. Sabetha gets it then and runs out.

[AverageGuy]

By the way having read the whole thread now no-one seems to agree with my interpretation of why Sabetha left.

If she even left willingly. If Patience is lying, she could just as easily be lying about that part.

[Isis]

The worst thing about the Locke-Sabetha soap opera is that you get a double helping with the 'flashback' section. Essentially it's the same storyline twice.

I loved the flashback back story device in the first book, they were like little refreshing interludes to the main event. Here, it was near half the total volume and I didn't enjoy that. Probably because the play within a play concept didn't lightly fire. Elizabeth Hand's first novel, Winterlong, has her characters fall in with a band of wandering players and take up roles as performers. It works beautifully within the book as a whole. In ROT there were too many thinly drawn characters in that section of the book and it didn't hold my interest at all.

[Isis]

Light my fire. Damn you autocorrect.

[Sir Thursday]

Just finished it. I think I agree with Yag and BFC in that it felt like there was something in the plots that came together. In the first two books there were intricate grand plans afoot, and Lynch caught you up in them and made them seem real and exciting. Here, the plots in the main storyline were vague and not particularly gripping. Several times in the book Locke ends up going by the seat of his pants, which is far less fun to read about and almost made me feel like the author was writing the same way (eg. bereft of ideas). And when he did compose a scheme (like the one with the boats) it felt like something of an afterthought because we hadn't really had time to see it germinate properly.

Because of how the acting storyline was given so much time, I almost feel like it should have been produced separately as a novella or something. It's a fun caper with the young GB and it hangs together quite nicely by itself, but when you put it next to the present day it doesn't really stand up (and I certainly didn't feel like it benefited from being interlaced like it was). As I was reading it felt like filler rather than something genuinely engaging (I think perhaps because as someone said upthread a lot of the Locke/Sabatha stuff was like an echo chamber in the two stories, repeating but not necessarily adding to it). I would have preferred to have kept the flashbacks more separate (the way it was in the first third, in fact) and given the Karthain storyline more time. Also, I felt like Jean got short shrift in this book. Was he ignored this much in the first two books? I certainly don't remember it that way...

Still, after all those complaints I did enjoy it. It kept me engaged throughout, and I thought Lynch did a pretty good job with the characters. Liked the fleshing out of the mythology and the re-introduction of Falconer as a menace does set things up nicely for future installments. It's the first book I've torn through at high speed in a while, feels good to be engrossed by something again :).

ST

[unJon]

Just finished it. I think I agree with Yag and BFC in that it felt like there was something in the plots that came together. In the first two books there were intricate grand plans afoot, and Lynch caught you up in them and made them seem real and exciting. Here, the plots in the main storyline were vague and not particularly gripping. Several times in the book Locke ends up going by the seat of his pants, which is far less fun to read about and almost made me feel like the author was writing the same way (eg. bereft of ideas). And when he did compose a scheme (like the one with the boats) it felt like something of an afterthought because we hadn't really had time to see it germinate properly.

Well in this book it was the Patience Mage faction playing out a very long an intricate con in which Locke and Jean were pawns slash misdirection. There's actually a nice interlude chapter with two mages talking (turns out its the double agent Coldmarrow and the I forget the name of the Exceptionalist faction), where Coldmarrow says to pay close attention to Locke. I remember at the time thinking it sounded like magician misdirection patter but then promptly forgot it.

That said since we never are really on the side of the Mage faction, the con is handle in a way that we feel victims of it rather than conspirators to it as we do in LOLL and RSURS. So it's abrupt and we focus on Locke and his childish pranks. I actually wonder if the book will stand up better on a reread when you'll notice all the clues and hints dropped along the way.

[Renasko]

Fun read, I suppose, but disappointing. I kept finding myself further and further into the book, praying something dramatic would happen and it never really did. Lynch skips over the politics and exploring the new land, not to mention Jean, and we are left with a prolonged past theatre story.

What did we even learn? There is no development in the series, whatsoever.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Finally got around to finishing it. I've been pretty busy recently, but the slow pace of reading largely reflects my disappointment at the action (or the lack thereof).

Problems:

1. The stakes are simply too low: no-one cares about the election. Also, Locke, Jean, and Sabetha make a pretty poor job of electioneering - where's the canvassing? Then there's the missed opportunities. It's (presumably) too late to gerrymander, but they could have relocated voters from safe seats to marginals. They could have used their extensive funds to sign up new voters, or "voted" on behalf of dead voters still on the roll. They could have found ways of getting opponents ballots struck off (via fake double-voting). They could have sent out false messages to Black Iris areas about the vote being delayed. They never even considered the maxim that "what matters is not the vote, but he who counts the vote" - yes, we're fobbed off at the end with the idea that the bondsmagi ensure safe elections, but they could at least have investigated the possibilities. Instead of actual decent election-rigging, we're treated to a series of pranks.

2. The dual narrative was a distraction. It's fine switching between POVs, but having the same POV ten or so years apart tries to invest us in two different stories simultaneously, and I'm not sure it works. I did like the corpse cover-up though.

3. Jean. I really like Jean, and felt he got the short-end of the stick here, since it's really the Locke and Sabetha show. We don't really get sufficient development of his romantic liaison, so it seemed very much second-fiddle and tacked on.

4. We (largely) know the reason for Locke's single interest sexuality, but surely someone should have pointed out to him how unhealthy/creepy it seems?

5. "Storeys" drove me nuts every time I found it.

I don't hate the book by any stretch of the imagination, and still appreciate Lynch's hard work in writing this while dealing with crippling depression. But I do think it's a significant step down from Lies, and even from Red Seas.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RBPL,

I think this is a transition book. If there was a mistake I think it was waiting util this book to introduce us to Sabetha. That introduction was the real focus of RoT. If she's this important we should have met her earlier and seen her fully integrated into the GB's. It's too much to have her as a shadow in the other to books without really meeting her.