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The 7: false gods?


Max of Castamere

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Max, welcome to the forum... I hope you'll enjoy here... :cheers:



Now, there is no such thing as true or false Gods. Martin is creating religions, not deities. In ASOIAF universe, you can't claim that any God is more real than another, for we haven't seen any of them actually doing something. Yes, Old Gods proved to be real, but alas, they are nothing more than humans, greenseers. R'hllor and many other deities didn't provide proof of their existence, nor will they, according to GRRM. So, while there are many religions, when it comes to Gods, we can for certainty say there is no proof they exist...


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There is no evidence of the existence of any Deity in ASoIaF. Magic exists but I don't believe that any actual Gods exist.

Max, welcome to the forum... I hope you'll enjoy here... :cheers:

Now, there is no such thing as true or false Gods. Martin is creating religions, not deities. In ASOIAF universe, you can't claim that any God is more real than another, for we haven't seen any of them actually doing something. Yes, Old Gods proved to be real, but alas, they are nothing more than humans, greenseers. R'hllor and many other deities didn't provide proof of their existence, nor will they, according to GRRM. So, while there are many religions, when it comes to Gods, we can for certainty say there is no proof they exist...

This here. I believe GRRM himself has said that no god will ever be confirmed to exist in ASOIAF.

I was going to chime in but it's already been well covered ;)

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OK, just to add several SSMs regarding religion:

1. http://web.archive.org/web/20061109131851/http://afterburnsf.com/George_R_R_Martin.htm

Afterburn SF: Another interesting aspect of your works are the religions that you have in there. They’re all so detailed and contrasting, the Seven, the Drowned God, the Old Gods, R’hllor, the Faceless God. How do you create such detailed, believable religions, and do any of them reflect aspects of real world religions?

George R. R. Martin: Well, most of them do reflect aspects of real world religions, but the key word there is aspects. I try not to do just a one for one transplant, where, you know, I take Christianity, but, instead of being named Jesus he’s named Joseph. I mean that’s…you know, you can do that, it’s perfectly legitimate, but, I’d like to make it a little more interesting, to take a bit of this and a bit of that, and mix them up, and add an imagined development or a fantasy element, to make it something uniquely my own.

All of the religions in Ice and Fire have their roots in certain aspects of real world religions. Certainly, the Faith, in some ways, is based on the medieval Catholic Church, but in some ways it’s not. Their theology is somewhat similar. They don’t really have seven gods, as I make it clear, they have one god with seven aspects, which is not so different from the Catholic Church, which has one God with three aspects, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. So there’s influence there, but there’s also differences. Having seven instead of three, and what are the seven? How would the religion develop if it had, not just seven aspects, but these particular seven aspects. What would that mean in terms of how they worshipped, and what the churches looked like, and things like that. You have to take the basic idea, and you develop it, and you work out the ramifications as best you can.

Similarly, the faith of the Lord of Light, R’hllor, is a dualistic faith. It draws some of its roots from Zoroastroism and some from the heresy of the Cathars, which was the root of the Albigensian crusade, one of the more fascinating aspects of French medieval history.

So, yes, there are always aspects of real world religions in there, but it’s always flavored with a certain amount of imagination and extrapolation, as well.

2. http://io9.com/5822939/george-rr-martin-explains-why-well-never-meet-any-gods-in-a-song-of-ice-and-fire

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

3. http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons/

There’s a line in book 5 where character says, “The gods are good.” Jaime thinks, “You go on believing that.” You talk about religion a lot in the stories, but what are your views?
I suppose I’m a lapsed Catholic. You would consider me an atheist or agnostic. I find religion and spirituality fascinating. I would like to believe this isn’t the end and there’s something more, but I can’t convince the rational part of me that that makes any sense whatsoever. That’s what Tolkien left out — there’s no priesthood, there’s no temples; nobody is worshiping anything in Rings.

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Perhaps if the question could be changed to;


Do the followers of the 7 display any supernatural powers which is attributed to their God?


That might be a more appropriate question, given what others have stated already. And I have to admit, while I can't think of anything right now, it is something which has interested me a lot. So far we have seen some supernatural things occurring with the followers of the Old Gods and R'holloists, and these are attributed (in-universe) to the Gods. So will we see anything from the 7/septons and septas


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There is no evidence of the existence of any Deity in ASoIaF. Magic exists but I don't believe that any actual Gods exist.

One really strong piece of evidence supporting this is Melissandre's chapter in DwD, in which she states her magic is more powerful at the Wall then it has been anywhere else, including Asshai. She attributes this to the magic woven into the Wall's brickwork, and since this would have had to have been the work of Old Gods magic, it seems magic is a universal form of energy that can be manipulated by certain individuals, not a gift from a deity.

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I really believe that GRRM has creates evidences of the power of all the religions. Only that the one of the 7 are more subtle than the others, and not always applies as the person who is prying want to. And maybe many of the examples are at the Sansa chapters.

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I like the think that what the people interpret as the gods is just their misunderstanding about the magical field which is prevalent throughout the world of ice and fire. Depending on how the people interpret the magic, they call it aspects of their gods. Everyone is using the same all inclusive magical field ... ITS THE FORCE!


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Seeing as how dragons are fire made flesh, I wonder if they are connected to R'hllor? On some level I think they almost have to be. I sincerely hope we eventually receive an explanation on R'hllor- what it is, and where it came from.


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Seeing as how dragons are fire made flesh, I wonder if they are connected to R'hllor? On some level I think they almost have to be. I sincerely hope we eventually receive an explanation on R'hllor- what it is, and where it came from.

the concept of the non-existent R'hllor came from Asshai where it seems to be a volcanic region and the culture has a lot of mysterious magic folk. The probably realized their magic was in connection with fire and possibly also with dark as the region is called 'the Shadow Lands,' so its quite understandable how a religion based on that duality was established.

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