Heresy 76

[Urrax]

... I do very strongly feel that assuming that they are uniquely something apart is a mistake. I think that there are others involved besides the white walkers.

:agree:

[alienarea]

I'm with hecameburning, Mother of Mountains and Capon Breath on this one:

Others = White Walkers

[Black Crow]

I agree that the Others and white walkers are synonymous, but what I'm arguing is that the white walkers may not be alone.

[addicted to snow]

I read things about what Mromont would "surely" have done if he knew.

Someone wrote about Mormont "surely" killing Craster if...

Mormont was not a man living in a black and white fantasy about Craster. He just decides he adds more than he rests to the Watch, and thus decides to keep him as a friend. Mormont can know of Craster's connection with the Gods without inmediately and absolutely labeling him as an enemy.

From this point, you can generalize a bit, with interesting consecuences: I feel that the northern-cultured character make a closer connection between "what is out there in the woods" or the broader sensed "Others" Black Crows likes, and the Gods, their gods, the Old Gods. This connection seems stronger near to and north to the Wall.

Mormont, and even the Watch, could know that Craster does strange things with some gods.

The difficult step can be deciding that those gods are the "enemy" the Watch was created to fight, that is something we heretics are not that sure of. What relationship is there between the duties of the Watch and the terms of the Pact?

A difficulty of the interpretation can be in the judeo-christian formation of the vast majority of us, as Martin's reader. We are comfortable with the idea of the existence of fiew, omnipotent gods, which channot be challenged successfully by mortals. The ancient western polytheistical gods were not like this. As their power is limited, they cannot be lenient in the mortal world like our gods: If everybody will surely pass through the Final Judgement, some sinners can die without any in-world punishment. Arachne, or Craster, have to deal with a much nearer menace of retaliation from the gods, even if the gods themselves are depicted as of very limited power compared to ours. This very limited power to act can be a better incentive to try NOT to get their attention. You can actually fly below their radar. And Mormont can know that Craster should go on flying under the God's radar to be able to help the Watch too. Even if Mormont doesn't strictly like all of Craster's dealigs with this powerful but not omnipotent beings.

Well, No one needs to interpret or theorize as to what Mormont thought Craster was doing with his sons... Mormont says "He gives his sons to the Wood"... Meaning the Old Gods... I Mormont is more direct, honest, and prone to speaking his mind than other other character I can think of at the moment. So I think it is safe to say that Mormont truly believes that Craster "gives his sons to the Wood'...

[wolfmaid7]

I agree that the Others and white walkers are synonymous, but what I'm arguing is that the white walkers may not be alone.

BC I fear this arguement is lost the " fixation"on the Others= WW only is all that can be seen. People are not looking at how other characters are using the term wheter right or wrong it's the point if view.

I thing it may also has to do with the ethymology of the word and how it's evolved and used by some characters based on experiance , misidentification or oral tale. But I don't think it's accidental I think that's a plot device that will yield fruition.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Ultimately, from the viewpoint of someone trying to figure out what's really going on, the term Others is more than just a matter of semantics.

...

To cut a long argument short, I don't believe that they stand outside the story just so that everybody else can rally against them; I think that the deliberate use of the term Others, allied to those alternatives, white walkers, white shadows and so on, is hiding their real part in the story and more importantly hiding the connection to other players.

I don't know the answers, but I do very strongly feel that assuming that they are uniquely something apart is a mistake. I think that there are others involved besides the white walkers.

Well, I'm a Johnny-come-lately to the Heresy threads - and I don't mean to re-hash arguments or discussions already long belabored. That said - I think this is a lot more straight-forward than you'd like it to be (which is fine - opinions will differ), and I'm not overly concerned that this puts me in danger of misunderstanding the story. As far as it goes, it seems to me that GRRM has been consistent in his use of the term - and it's pretty clear to me that an "Other" is a specific entity we've encountered in the text. I agree with you that the Others do not ultimately "stand outside the story," that their role and function in these books thus far remains much undisclosed, and that GRRM has left much yet to explain... yet I do not find "Others" (the term itself) problematic or confusing.

Now... to move this conversation along... my re-read of certain passages related to this conversation does turn up some intriguing similarities that could provide some connections between the various "gods," cults and religions in the text. Specifically, there is a description of a charcoal-drawn face of the Stranger that reminds of these cold, quiet Others:

"It was full dark before they found the village. Catelyn found herself wondering if the place had a name. If so, its people had taken that knowledge with them when they fled, along with all they owned, down to the candles in the Sept... Within, the seven walls were cracked and crooked. God is one, Septon Osmynd had taught her when she was a girl, with seven aspects, as the sept is a single building, with seven wails. The wealthy septs of the cities had statues of the Seven and an altar to each. In Winterfell, Septon Chayle hung carved masks from each wall. Here Catelyn found only rough charcoal drawings...

"Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise. And the seventh face . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there."

-- A Clash of Kings, Chapter 33

I wonder if GRRM will ever concretely reveal how these Others "connect to other players" in his narrative, or whether they might continue to fill -- simply and defiantly -- this role of the "unknown and unknowable" Stranger. Would that leave us dissatisfied? Uneasy?

[addicted to snow]

Do you ever feel embarrassed when you reread your posts?

It seems to me that a tunnel between the Black Gate & Winterfell is slightly more realistic than your theory of the horn of winter being celestial object...

Though someone made a post a few Threads ago about another book that GRRM wrote which had vampires, a character named Morgan, Wights, and Winter - The post also mentioned that the story also had some of the same constellations that can be observed from Westeros. Once constellation in particular had a blue star as the eye & we know that GRRM often uses the phrase "starry-blue-eyes" in ASOIAF. It seems like the constellation was also played an active role in the story, but I cannot recall. Anyway, I thought that it offered credibility to your Horn of Winter Theory... At least it lets us know that GRRM has spent a lot of time thinking about the celestial objects in his worlds & is not afraid to have them interact with his world...

--

As much time as you have spent analyzing ADWD for clues about Winter emanating from Winterfell in the winterfell chapters, I thought that you might have any idea where we might find information about the existence of a tunnel between the Black Gate & Winterfell &/or any of the implication\s that would have on the story...

This is why I singled you out in my post... Also because it seems that the existence of a tunnel between the The Heart of Winter & Winterfell would support your 'Winter Storm coming from Winterfell' Theory...

[Black Crow]

Well, I'm a Johnny-come-lately to the Heresy threads - and I don't mean to re-hash arguments or discussions already long belabored. That said - I think this is a lot more straight-forward than you'd like it to be (which is fine - opinions will differ), and I'm not overly concerned that this puts me in danger of misunderstanding the story. As far as it goes, it seems to me that GRRM has been consistent in his use of the term - and it's pretty clear to me that an "Other" is a specific entity we've encountered in the text. I agree with you that the Others do not ultimately "stand outside the story," that their role and function in these books thus far remains much undisclosed, and that GRRM has left much yet to explain... yet I do not find "Others" (the term itself) problematic or confusing.

Now... to move this conversation along... my re-read of certain passages related to this conversation does turn up some intriguing similarities that could provide some connections between the various "gods," cults and religions in the text. Specifically, there is a description of a charcoal-drawn face of the Stranger that reminds of these cold, quiet Others:

I wonder if GRRM will ever concretely reveal how these Others "connect to other players" in his narrative, or whether they might continue to fill -- simply and defiantly -- this role of the "unknown and unknowable" Stranger. Would that leave us dissatisfied? Uneasy?

On balance I still reckon that we'll eventually find who or what is behind them and it won't be a Great Other sitting on an Icy Throne, but as "The Stranger" I think that the Seven are vastly underestimated. There has been something of a tendency on various threads to regard them as a bit passive and ineffectual by comparison with some of the other religions out there.

I'm not so sure. Or rather my view is that the Seven are an amalgam of various other religions and that the individual deities do relate to those other religions - we've discussed at some length the possible connection between maiden mother and crone with the human aspects of the Morrigan, and I also wonder about the Warrior. After all in Mel's version of the Azor Ahai prophecy she speaks of a warrior drawing the sword and how that warrior will be as Azor Ahai come again. It might be fun to try and link some of the other aspects of the Seven with external deities/heroes.

[addicted to snow]

Also, Addictedtosnow, while I agreed with your thoughts on Black Crow, your theories are getting out there and the fact that you have ONLY listened to audiobooks does not help your cause.

Are you saying that you have found proof that there is not a tunnel between the Black Gate & Winterfell?

Or solid proof that Others have been around prior to the event's in aGoT's prologue?

[addicted to snow]

Bloody hell pal, put the blunt down and step away from the keyboard.

I put my last blunt down in 2007... I was merely suggesting how far reaching the implications of such a tunnel's existence could impact the story...

[addicted to snow]

I wonder if GRRM will ever concretely reveal how these Others "connect to other players" in his narrative, or whether they might continue to fill -- simply and defiantly -- this role of the "unknown and unknowable" Stranger. Would that leave us dissatisfied? Uneasy?

He will definitely make this reveal before all is said & done... I think that we will discover that the Others are very closely associated with House Stark, the Kings of Winter...

[alienarea]

On balance I still reckon that we'll eventually find who or what is behind them and it won't be a Great Other sitting on an Icy Throne, but as "The Stranger" I think that the Seven are vastly underestimated. There has been something of a tendency on various threads to regard them as a bit passive and ineffectual by comparison with some of the other religions out there.

I'm not so sure. Or rather my view is that the Seven are an amalgam of various other religions and that the individual deities do relate to those other religions - we've discussed at some length the possible connection between maiden mother and crone with the human aspects of the Morrigan, and I also wonder about the Warrior. After all in Mel's version of the Azor Ahai prophecy she speaks of a warrior drawing the sword and how that warrior will be as Azor Ahai come again. It might be fun to try and link some of the other aspects of the Seven with external deities/heroes.

Also, the faith of the seven might mirror the seven kingdoms - one aspect of the faith for one of the kingdoms. And of course the stranger for the north.

That might foreshadow the end. All seven aspects of the seven are a part of humanity, but one is unwanted. The north.

[Urrax]

.... It might be fun to try and link some of the other aspects of the Seven with external deities/heroes.

Well, the Seven are quite similar to aspects of Greco-Roman gods, and probably of Hindu as well (about which I know little). Thus

Father-Jupiter/Zeus

Warrior-Mars/Ares

Smith-Vulcan/Hephaestus

Maid-Diana/Artemis

Mother-Juno/Hera

Crone-Trivia/Hecate

Stranger-Pluto/Hades

No Venus/Aphrodite I'm afraid ...

[Black Crow]

Also, the faith of the seven might mirror the seven kingdoms - one aspect of the faith for one of the kingdoms. And of course the stranger for the north.

That might foreshadow the end. All seven aspects of the seven are a part of humanity, but one is unwanted. The north.

I like that one. A possible correlation between the Seven Kingdoms and the Seven deities hadn't escaped me, but I do like the idea of associating the Stranger with the North.

[Black Crow]

Well, the Seven are quite similar to aspects of Greco-Roman gods, and probably of Hindu as well (about which I know little). Thus

Father-Jupiter/Zeus

Warrior-Mars/Ares

Smith-Vulcan/Hephaestus

Maid-Diana/Artemis

Mother-Juno/Hera

Crone-Trivia/Hecate

Stranger-Pluto/Hades

No Venus/Aphrodite I'm afraid ...

While not denying your suggestions I was thinking more in terms of the deities of Martin's world rather than our own.

[wolfmaid7]

I had this theory early early on and it was a crackpot,i admit it was during my marathon Stargate week,but any ways westros was stuck in one huge time loop and all the human players we have now were essentially the gods of the next cycle etc. So as the loop started all these players became myths,legends and then gods.I was so happy that i saw variations of this list on another thread so i didn't feel too much of a crackpot.I wasn't sleeping much it was a crazy week. But i had:

Father-Ned

Warrior-Jaime

Smith-Gendry

Maid-Sansa

Mother-Dany

Crone-Cat

Stanger-Arya

[addicted to snow]

We have Old Nan's description of the "Others" as cold dead things that were blood thirsty etc this description we know does NOT describe the Popsicles but in fact the Wights.

Then we have a conversation between Jon and Gilly talking about the Others,we know from the conversation Jon was in fact speaking of the Wights Othor and Jaffa,while Gilly was speaking of Popsicles.This is where the beautiful confusion comes in and its the reliability of the characters about what they are seeing and how they choose to label it.

I'm not sure these examples are 100% applicable to the discussion, and here is why:

• Only readers who saw an Interview with GRRM know that the Others are not dead... Old Nan, or any of the characters in ASOIAF have any way of knowing whether the Others are alive or dead. Bear in mind that they have not been seen in 8,000 years...

As you mentioned, the conversation between Jon & Gilly is not really applicable because we know for certain that One or Both of the conversation participants were confused. Not to mention the fact that Others were not around at the time of the event that Gilly was referencing. GRRM also included a picture of Gilly witnessing this event in the illustrated ASOIAF Books, and the picture depicts humans taking Craster's Son, not the Others who are dipicted as 'ethereal' in nature by artists who have gained GRRM's praise for accurately depicting Others. So we know that Jon was confused & Gilly's account is far from reliable to begin with & just does not stand up to scrutiny.

The Image of Gilly witnessing what she thought was Others taking Craster's Son can be seen at the link below (image #4, I believe):

http://richardhescox.yolasite.com/a-clash-of-kings-gallery.php

In Summary, these examples are not really applicable to the Others = White Walkers or Others = White Walkers + Debate...

[Peach Fuzz]

Regarding the popsicles /ww and the others i believe the term 'the others' means more than White walker because why would you need to call them White Walkers if 'the others' is already a term for them?

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not sure these examples are 100% applicable to the discussion, and here is why:

• Only readers who saw an Interview with GRRM know that the Others are not dead... Old Nan, or any of the characters in ASOIAF have any way of knowing whether the Others are alive or dead. Bear in mind that they have not been seen in 8,000 years...

As you mentioned, the conversation between Jon & Gilly is not really applicable because we know for certain that One or Both of the conversation participants were confused. Not to mention the fact that Others were not around at the time of the event that Gilly was referencing. GRRM also included a picture of Gilly witnessing this event in the illustrated ASOIAF Books, and the picture depicts humans taking Craster's Son, not the Others who are dipicted as 'ethereal' in nature by artists who have gained GRRM's praise for accurately depicting Others. So we know that Jon was confused & Gilly's account is far from reliable to begin with & just does not stand up to scrutiny.

The Image of Gilly witnessing what she thought was Others taking Craster's Son can be seen at the link below (image #4, I believe):

http://richardhescox.yolasite.com/a-clash-of-kings-gallery.php

In Summary, these examples are not really applicable to the Others = White Walkers or Others = White Walkers + Debate...

Ok your still missing the point so i will try again.I''m not saying that WW does not = Others i'm saying that the term on account of mis-identification/confusion for whatever reason is of no import. Meaning the oral tale of the Others/WW's could well have started from distortion which i believe is an intentional plot device by the author.Jon's conversation with Gilly proves how easy it is information could be lost in translation and shrouded in ambiguity. She was speaking of what she believed was an Other,but so was Jon,neither of them were speaking of the same thing,but both "classified" them as "Other".My point with Old Nan was that even-though she didn't know wholly what she was speaking of tales like that became "fact" in the minds of people in Westros.Classifying something as "Other" is a sure fire way to demonize something it creates enemies easily and i believe that is the point.

Secondly,i know where you stand on the thing that takes Craster's babes as human.It's NOT my belief,for i believe the WW's are taking the babes,but i disagree they are being turned into WW's;so we will leave that there.

The point is the term Other is so fluid various characters have dubbed what they've seen as Others,so my point isn't what they are or aren't the point is the distortion itself.

So my point is applicable to the debate,i don't really care what people call Popsicles its a matter of causal fallacy that is evident in POV recounts of meeting "Others".I care about the link as to why because therein lies the fallacy.

[Black Crow]

Ser Puddles wasn't very ethereal - at least not until after Sam stabbed him.