Heresy 76

[Efilnikufesin]

Well, the Seven are quite similar to aspects of Greco-Roman gods, and probably of Hindu as well (about which I know little). Thus

Father-Jupiter/Zeus

Warrior-Mars/Ares

Smith-Vulcan/Hephaestus

Maid-Diana/Artemis

Mother-Juno/Hera

Crone-Trivia/Hecate

Stranger-Pluto/Hades

No Venus/Aphrodite I'm afraid ...

Yes, but in ASOIAF we would mostly associate those gods with those of the Valyrian empire (seeing as Valyria seems to equate to Rome,) and maybe Balerion and their dragons are named after them, but when we think of the North, I would be inclined to imply a Celtic/or Norse association to their gods. All of these religions did have a great influence upon on another as well, being in such close proximity, so you will find gods and goddesses that cross lines between each religion.

Edit: Odin/The Dagda/and Zeus are all figures that mythologists equate to equal figures among these religions.

[King Tyrion VIII]

I cannot accept that Mormont was aware that Craster was giving his sons to the White Walkers - setting aside the question of whether WW = Others or not. I am disturbed by the TV show depicting WWs on the receiving end of the babes, and remember this scene bothering me in particular. I know the TV is far from canonical, but it just seems to me so crucial to things that GRRM would have steered the producers clear of it.

There is no wiggle room at all for Mormont to accept Craster being a popsickle factory. No farking way.

It may be heretical to the heretics, but the watch and the CotF are ultimately aligned in purpose - whether the watch realizes it or remembers it or not remains to be seen. There is just too much circumstantial evidence. They are crows, the crows are tools of the BR. BR is in a cave of children. Mormont's raven. crows helping Sam and Bran. Coldhands being a former member of teh watch. Bloodraven being a form LC of the watch. There's probably more.

Because of this I tend to reject any theory that suggests the CotF are controlling or in league with the popsickles.

Please continue reading and posting here in Heresy :)

[Urrax]

...Edit: Odin/The Dagda/and Zeus are all figures that mythologists equate to equal figures among these religions.

Historically I think Odin/Woden was equated to Mercury. Hence Dies Mercurii = Wednesday. This reflected his role as psychopomp or conductor of the slain to the afterlife.

[addicted to snow]

Ok your still missing the point so i will try again.I''m not saying that WW does not = Others i'm saying that the term on account of mis-identification/confusion for whatever reason is of no import. Meaning the oral tale of the Others/WW's could well have started from distortion which i believe is an intentional plot device by the author.Jon's conversation with Gilly proves how easy it is information could be lost in translation and shrouded in ambiguity. She was speaking of what she believed was an Other,but so was Jon,neither of them were speaking of the same thing,but both "classified" them as "Other"

I'm not so sure they did...

[addicted to snow]

Regarding the popsicles /ww and the others i believe the term 'the others' means more than White walker because why would you need to call them White Walkers if 'the others' is already a term for them?

Surely you jest!!!??? Practically everything has more than one common name... The examples are beyond count...

[Morrigan's Raven]

It is interesting to me that the Seven have both a Crone and a Stranger, as traditionally the crone is the one outside of Taboo, so able to touch the dead and dying; and the crone deity ( one of the Morrigan, Hecate, Kali ) is also a psychology. The Silent Sisters...Crone or Stranger?

Like North for Stranger, also your reason, Alienarea.

[Morrigan's Raven]

Stranger...Black and Whites...Arya as she is androgynous in her view point and a warg, therefore "strange" outlier in habit of mind.

Crone...Old Nan...healer, keeper of old stories...sounds like the old Khaleesi, imo

[Black Crow]

Stranger...Black and Whites...Arya as she is androgynous in her view point and a warg, therefore "strange" outlier in habit of mind.

Crone...Old Nan...healer, keeper of old stories...sounds like the old Khaleesi, imo

Indeed, I've mentioned this one before but as you're new...

If we take the three human aspects of the Morrigan: Ygritte is the Maiden who took Jon's and told him he knew nothing. Old Nan is the Crone who told him everything if only he'd listen, and the Mother is the one he's been searching for all his life.

And now of course the crow is perching on his shoulder.

[WWCED]

And the seventh face . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there."

-- A Clash of Kings, Chapter 33

Stars for eyes.

It occurs to me that this image constantly reappears in ASoIAF. Symeon Star-Eyes replaced his eyes with Star Sapphires.

The Wights have eyes that are described as blue as stars, which are the same color as the WW.

Melissandre in ADwD is described as having eyes like red stars.

The connection here is that star-like eyes are associated with death, so I wonder if the Faith of the Seven, especially the Stranger, has any connections with the Long Night as some sort of ancestral memory?

[Viserys_The Transformed]

The short answer is that we don't know. All we've got from those dim and distant days is that Bran the Builder built Winterfell and according to GRRM the rest is dodgy. The Last Hero, as mentioned above, probably wasn't Bran the Builder but on balance I think it likely he was a Stark and by extension the reason why the Starks are important. But we don't know.

I'd also hesitate to describe his companions as bannermen; it sounds much more like a group of sworn companions rather than a leader and the led.

I think Last Hero Willingly Sacrificed himself.for the realm. And when he dies, the White Walkers return to find another Hero to replace the Last One.

[jet199]

Historically I think Odin/Woden was equated to Mercury. Hence Dies Mercurii = Wednesday. This reflected his role as psychopomp or conductor of the slain to the afterlife.

There is a theory that Tyr was originally the all-father and Odin more of god of wind, poetry, magic and medicine like Mercury. Then a chieftain called Odin became very powerful and started a cult which raised his namesake god to king of the gods. So when the king lists go back to Odin or Woden they don't mean the god they mean this chieftain. Original Odin is more like the Stranger than anything, randomly turning up at peoples halls to make sure that they respected guest rights and keeping a hall or dead warriors.

[Mother of Mountains]

I think Last Hero Willingly Sacrificed himself.for the realm. And when he dies, the White Walkers return to find another Hero to replace the Last One.

I don't if it has been discussed on Heresy, but I thought the interpretation of 'The Prince that was Promised' as a sacrifice interesting.

So a blood sacrifice deal was made with the WW at the end of the Long Night, give them a sacrifice with King's blood and they stay in the far north.

Now they're back looking for what was promised to them, a Prince.

Might even fit with Craster's propitiation of his gods with the blood of his own children, could Craster count as a king in his own small way? He lives in a keep after all.

[Urrax]

There is a theory that Tyr was originally the all-father and Odin more of god of wind, poetry, magic and medicine like Mercury. Then a chieftain called Odin became very powerful and started a cult which raised his namesake god to king of the gods. So when the king lists go back to Odin or Woden they don't mean the god they mean this chieftain. Original Odin is more like the Stranger than anything, randomly turning up at peoples halls to make sure that they respected guest rights and keeping a hall or dead warriors.

Right. Odin definitely had his spooky side. It's always seemed to me that Tyr/Tiw got replaced as top dog because Odin, as leader of the Wild Hunt and mobilizer of the slain, appealed more to the warrior leadership. Interesting though that Tyr/Tiw was still head warrior when the day of Mars was anglicized as Tuesday.

[jet199]

I don't if it has been discussed on Heresy, but I thought the interpretation of 'The Prince that was Promised' as a sacrifice interesting.

So a blood sacrifice deal was made with the WW at the end of the Long Night, give them a sacrifice with King's blood and they stay in the far north.

Now they're back looking for what was promised to them, a Prince.

Might even fit with Craster's propitiation of his gods with the blood of his own children, could Craster count as a king in his own small way? He lives in a keep after all.

This would explain why when Stannis sees a king on fire he thinks it is a clue he is the PTWP rather than a sign to give up and go home. He thinks he has to be a sacrifice.

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning… burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh & turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?"

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I had this theory early early on and it was a crackpot,i admit it was during my marathon Stargate week,but any ways westros was stuck in one huge time loop and all the human players we have now were essentially the gods of the next cycle etc. So as the loop started all these players became myths,legends and then gods...

I love reading this thought... because your idea echoes a sense I've had that GRRM is chronicling a sort of "new" Age of Heroes, and that many of the legendary figures of Westeros/Essos walk again in the characters of these books. In a previous post I mentioned briefly what I thought was a subtle blurring of boundaries between past and future (similar to GRRM's blurring of the boundary between life and death) - and this is more or less what I had in mind. I haven't worked it out enough to be a full-blown theory, or even a very detailed post. It is only something I've felt has been hinted at in the books - in the use of common character names (Bran), recurring story structures (Bael the Bard), the anticipated rebirth of legends (AA), etc. - though perhaps if I paid more attention on a re-read I would see more. I've also wondered if - rather than a re-enactment of mythical storylines - GRRM might intend a narrative "unraveling" of creation/formation myths. So, in place of "Bran the Builder," perhaps we now have "Bran the Destroyer," for instance. Or in place of "Lann the Clever" who established the Lannister line at Casterly Rock by trickery, we now have "Tyrion the Giant" bitterly wielding his remarkable wits to the destruction of his own family and inheritance. Not sure, really. Just fun to consider.

That said, I'm not sure I see the Andal Seven fitting in quite the same way - because I view them more as archetypes than as particular figures.

[Black Crow]

This would explain why when Stannis sees a king on fire he thinks it is a clue he is the PTWP rather than a sign to give up and go home. He thinks he has to be a sacrifice.

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning… burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh & turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?"

That's an interesting observation if you consider the perspectives. Mel is apparently looking for the Warrior who will draw the sword and be as Azor Ahai once again. There are hints that either she isn't revealing the full picture or there are slightly different versions, as told by Salladhor San and perhaps also in the Jade Companion. Then we have the Prince that was Promised prophecy, of which we know nothing other than that Mel believes it to be one and the same with that of Azor Ahai. Its interesting in this context that when she identifies Stannis to Maester Aemon as both Azor Ahai and the the Prince that Was Promised, he doesn't contradict her but instead afterwards draws Jon's attention to the lack of heat from Stannis' sword, using the Azor Ahai prophecy.

Now the point of all this is that while it certainly seems at least possible that the Azor Ahai and Prince that Was Promised prophecies relate to the same warrior, the expectations as to what he or she is destined to do may well be different according to which version of either prophecy is being followed. Thus Mel speaks only of the warrior, while Stannis seems to anticipate a sacrifice.

What may also be significant here is Stannis' background. Big Bob Baratheon's hatred for Rhaegar shouldn't blind us to the fact that the Baratheon claim to the throne rests on their being closely related to the Targaryens, perhaps by blood as well as by marriage, and ultimately they are in any case Valyrians. As such Stannis is very likely well versed in the Prince that was Promised prophecy and accepting of his role as "Azor Ahai" not because this mysterious shadow-binder from out east has converted him, but rather because she has convinced him that he is the Prince that was Promised and sought by Rhaegar and the rest of his Targaryen cousins.

Thus, despite his obvious doubts, he has accepted his role as the Prince out of a sense of duty - and perhaps with more than a little apprehension as to what that duty will ultimately require of him.

[jet199]

I had a thought that the PTWP prophecy could also relate to a marriage pact. The Others gave a princess to the NK and they expect a prince back to seal the deal.

[Rustseer-Dreamer of Oxides]

An idea about the cells: what if the Night Fort became Botany Bay? The Andals could have deported rebels through the Wall. The Watch then became a force to make sure no one climbed back over. The Wall kept the prisoners on one side, where they could be blood sacrifices...making both First Men and Andals happy.

Prisoners for sacrifice possibly. Mayhaps the captives were a labor force to build up the wall or other fortifications. Or both.

[Black Crow]

Its possible, but ultimately I think the cells may just have been there as set dressing for this once huge but now abandoned fortress.

[King of Winters]

I had a thought that the PTWP prophecy could also relate to a marriage pact. The Others gave a princess to the NK and they expect a prince back to seal the deal.

Well Ned promised Lyanna to keep Jon safe.