Heresy 76

[Urrax]

Thanks. One thing about this is that it emanates from GRRM himself, not speaking through a character who may or may not be wrong. So we can take it as a given. Yes, no mention of the Long Night or the Wall. Also an inconsistency: "a hundred petty kingdoms rose and fell" implies there were less than 100 at any given time and a total of 100; yet "only seven kingdoms remained where once there had been hundreds" (plural).

[Lord Ravenstark]

Thanks. One thing about this is that it emanates from GRRM himself, not speaking through a character who may or may not be wrong. So we can take it as a given. Yes, no mention of the Long Night or the Wall. Also an inconsistency: "a hundred petty kingdoms rose and fell" implies there were less than 100 at any given time and a total of 100; yet "only seven kingdoms remained where once there had been hundreds" (plural).

It's a figure of speech. It means that there were many kingdoms, not an actual count of them.

[Black Crow]

Also an inconsistency: "a hundred petty kingdoms rose and fell" implies there were less than 100 at any given time and a total of 100; yet "only seven kingdoms remained where once there had been hundreds" (plural).

I think we have to note the plural, because as I pointed out earlier Old Nan speaks of "the hundred kingdoms of those times", which implies it was once an alternative name for Westeros just as in more recent times it was referred tro as the Seven Kingdoms. This doesn't however necessarily mean that there were exactly 100 kingdoms or that the 100 kingdoms as the beginning of a century were the same 100 kingdoms that ended it. The fact that its an age of heroes implies a certain degree of anarchy.

Nevertheless, in relation to the suggested correlation between the 100 kingdoms and the 100 pieces of dragonglass - and perhaps also 100 members of the original Watch, its probably a convention. I can hardly see the children turning up at the nightfort with a bag of daggers and asking "how many this year?"

[Urrax]

I agree. This inconsistency (of sorts) I think does in any interpretation of the 100 daggers as being somehow related to the kingdoms of that age.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

"So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured..."

So, if it is maintained that the North (alone of all places) is still a "kingdom of the First Men," then should we consider the possibility that the Pact has endured even to the present day in Winterfell and it's vassal territories?

Is that what the Stark in Winterfell guaranteed? And in the sack of Winterfell by Ramsay Bolton, the Pact is finally ended for all human parties?

[Black Crow]

"So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured..."

So, if it is maintained that the North (alone of all places) is still a "kingdom of the First Men," then should we consider the possibility that the Pact has endured even to the present day in Winterfell and it's vassal territories?

Is that what the Stark in Winterfell guaranteed? And in the sack of Winterfell by Ramsay Bolton, the Pact is finally ended for all human parties?

I don't think so and this is one of the reasons why its suggested in heresy that there's a connection between the Nights King business and the appearance of castles along the wall 4,000 years ago. If the Pact held the children should have found refuge in the North, but instead fled beyond the Wall and until now were thought to be dead long since.

Its also possible that there may be a connection here to the Stark in Winterfell business, or ratherto the fact that its known there must be one, but everybody seems to have forgotten why. Perhaps that knowledge died with the betrayal of the Nights King.

[JonNonRegis]

Ah well, I was referring to the physical state of the Wall. We know that there is old and powerful magic worked into it, but once again that validates the point.

Well, I'm not sure that it does. If the Wall was constructed by CotF to prevent men from going north, the warding magic should apply to men. Not wights.

no way over exept for a few hardy individuals (and why?) from the south

This seems to assume the Wall was 700 feet tall at the time of its completion. But GRRM has said in no uncertain terms that that was not the case.

It took thousands of years to be raised to its present height, and hence, was far smaller than it is now, and correspondingly far easier to cross.

Re the parenthetical question (and why?) posed above... doesn't that contradict your whole premise?

Let's assume men had, as you imply above, no reason to go north.

Then what motive would the CotF have had to put up the Wall in the first place?

Another question. Let's assume GRRM is correct about his own creation, and the Wall took thousands of years to be raised to its present height. So when were these thousands of years in which the CotF were raising it? Before Men got to Westeros or after?

[JonNonRegis]

I agree. This inconsistency (of sorts) I think does in any interpretation of the 100 daggers as being somehow related to the kingdoms of that age.

:agree:

[Black Crow]

Because as I've said it delineates the boundary between the realms of men and the otherlands beyond. It prevents casual movement across that boundary in either direction and in particular prevents the movement of large bodies of men with livestock and horses. It prevents the movement of settlers. Those comparatively few left up there were no threat.

[King of Winters]

Because as I've said it delineates the boundary between the realms of men and the otherlands beyond. It prevents casual movement across that boundary in either direction and in particular prevents the movement of large bodies of men with livestock and horses. It prevents the movement of settlers. Those comparatively few left up there were no threat.

Do you think the old races had any idea what the Wall would do (screw up the seasons) when they were building it?

[Joe Pine]

"So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured..."

Kingdoms. I think the Andal invasion swept it from being Kingdoms.

So, if it is maintained that the North (alone of all places) is still a "kingdom of the First Men," then should we consider the possibility that the Pact has endured even to the present day in Winterfell and it's vassal territories?

Is that what the Stark in Winterfell guaranteed? And in the sack of Winterfell by Ramsay Bolton, the Pact is finally ended for all human parties?

Consider that Winterfell has a sept, probably per dating Catelyn marrying Ned, I don't think The North is truly still a kingdom of the First Men at the start of the series. There's the Manderleys at White Harbour too.

Heresy I suppose would be a Stark king betraying the CoTF perhaps by not allowing them past moat cailin? Or something similar around the time the Andals invaded.

[Black Crow]

Its specifically mentioned that Ned built the sept for Catelyn.

[Black Crow]

Do you think the old races had any idea what the Wall would do (screw up the seasons) when they were building it?

I don't know, it wasn't me - honest.

All we know is that dark magic went into the Hammers and Ygritte was pretty positive that the magic within the Wall is evil and therefore presumably "dark". If we consider all three in sequence; Arm of Dorne, Neck and then the Wall, it looks very much like a steady retreat northwards and perhaps by the time the Wall was created things were getting a bit fraught and to hell with the consequences.

[redriver]

If the Pact was in place and holding during the Long Night,I wonder why the Last Hero had such a hard time finding the COTF.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Speaking of what the Wall is. The Wall is the Bifrost Bridge.

Who guards the Bifrost Bridge? And is there anything special you have to say?

[Joe Pine]

Its specifically mentioned that Ned built the sept for Catelyn.

Hmm, I had thought that, but wanted to float it. So no previous septs for the 300 odd years of Targaryens rule, albeit they would be very occasional visitors and presumably prior to Rickard's southron ambitions, there was no need to accommodate any wives as the Starks married in and amongst the northern nobility.

Obviously after Torrhen knelt, the Lords Stark would go south, either to give homage/report as warden of the north, the Starks would have been exposed to the Targaryen Court and other Southron lords, High Septons or whoever. We presume other lords didn't visit the Starks.

We're told the Manderlys set up at White Harbour about 1000 years ago. Andal customs, followers of the faith and an important bannerman of the Starks, but no sept in Winterfell that such an important bannerman could use? Maybe it's a plot hole or whatever.

For me, I'd reckon on it being more plausible that an earlier Stark having a sept built at Winterfell and it being mothballed according to who was in the household, especially as we don't know several of the wives in the family. But as you rightly say we can only follow the text on that.

But certainly, the north was exposed to the faith of seven, Andal culture and customs for at least that 1000 years and even if that date is slightly wonky as other dates are likely to be, the events around the Manderlys are a turning point in making The Kingdom of the North, not entirely under the Old Gods and not a Kingdom of the first men. The children of the forest must have departed from the north before that and certainly not more recently.

[Urrax]

If the Pact was in place and holding during the Long Night,I wonder why the Last Hero had such a hard time finding the COTF.

Presumably they were hiding out from the Popsicles and their wights.

[JonNonRegis]

Those comparatively few left up there were no threat.

Were the CotF really so blind they thought men would never reproduce?

Speaking of what the Wall is. The Wall is the Bifrost Bridge.

Who guards the Bifrost Bridge? And is there anything special you have to say?

I believe it's Heimdall who guards it. Anything special? Why, yes.

Let's assume GRRM is correct about his own creation. This means the Wall took hundreds of years to complete, and thousands of years to be raised to its present height.

So when were these thousands of years in which the CotF were raising it? Before Men got to Westeros or after?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Let's assume GRRM is correct about his own creation. This means the Wall took hundreds of years to complete, and thousands of years to be raised to its present height.

So when were these thousands of years in which the CotF were raising it? Before Men got to Westeros or after?

I assumed that Men did most of the "raising" of the Wall to it's "present height." Jeor Mormont does say that it was historically one of the goals of each LC to increase the height of the Wall. Would that make sense?

[Urrax]

An aside.

I see from his website that GRRM is touring Australia next month, appearances 9th-17th. George, how about cutting back on this swanning around and sitting down to the keyboard and FINISHING it fer Gawds sake?