Jaime Lannister: condemned for the wrong reason

[Ser Eric]

Yeah, well, you're wrong seeing as you can't justify it.

[aceluby]

No. I mean to say that there are things i'm not into (gay), and things i am (bondage) that people frown on that aren't wrong or immoral. Incest isn't one of them. I concede that it's nowhere near pedophilia or rape, but it is immoral.

At least that's my view. Take it or leave it.

That doesn't explain why you think it's immoral. Seems like you're just subjectively throwing terms into buckets based on gut feel. You might not like it, you might think it's gross, but where does it cross the immoral line when it's two consenting adults?

[Knight Of Winter]

These threads seem to be occurring on regular basis, so much that maybe another PSA is needed.

To be short, what Jaime did was utterly wrong. Killing completely innocent boy to cover up love affair you shouldn't have been committing in the first place cannot be right in any conceivable universe. Great part of Jaime's redemption arc is him realizing how big jerkass he was and trying to change his ways.

[Spartan64Destiny]

If Jamie was in his right frame of mind to be honest and provide Ned Stark a more compelling reason why he killed the Mad King, he would have been in a much better of place than where he is currently. But killing men @ an early age, being knighted young and watching all of the atrocities committed by the Mad King would mess with your head a little bit. Every wrong he's done in the past, he is atoning for now, so Jamie is okay in my book................

[Silent Ghost]

This is not going to end well, but I had to share this thought of mine somewhere.

I have seen many people applaud GRRM for Jaime's character arc, making a guy they despised when he shoved Bran out of the window into the guy they cheered for. Alternatively, people say "yeah, Jaime is pretty cool now, but he shoved a kid out of the window, nothing could redeem him after THAT"

Let me preface this by saying that I adore children and that Bran is my second favorite character of asoiaf. However, I have never found that particular act villainous (in comparison for, say, Jaime's willingness to harm Arya just because Cersei asked him to)

At the start of GoT, many people hate Jaime. The hate is unjust even from their limited knowledge (that king seriously deserved to burn). It's VERY unjust when you take into account the fact that Jaime killed him to save King's Landing. The Starks are the heart of this hate, Ned the first person to judge Jaime.

The realm insults him, the king mocks him, literally the only people who stand by Jaime are his family. As he says himself, he is a warrior, Cersei's lover and nothing else.

Cersei is a light of his life, his sun, stars and moon all together. Bran is a kid of man he hates.

Bran spilling the beans about the incest would mean:

- the end of Jaime

- the end of Cersei

- the end of their children (although at that point he cares about them more as extension of his love's happiness)

- the end of Lannister family (Robert's pretty non-discriminative in his wrath)

Bran's death means... Bran's death.

Now could there be other means of securing Bran's silence? Probably, but neither of those would be sure. What's even more important, Jaime is not really a thinker until his hand gets chopped off. When threatened, he acts entirely under the flight-or-fight response, which is geared towards fight in his case (see: aerys)

So he kills a kid of a man he hates to save his love, to save their children, to save his family. Even Ned Stark, in fact, thinks he might have done the same. Hell, he thinks Catelyn might have done the same (and Catelyn would - see: Jinglebell). Is that a perfect hero? No. Is that a grey act but not black? I don't think how that could be debated. In fact, regarding the act himself, I would take Jaime over person who let their family die because he just couldn't harm an innocent kid.

Of course, there is a fact Jaime doesn't show remorse for Bran's fate for a looong time. That is, I believe, a bit more like a "villain". But we should note that Jaime was, at that point, dead inside, a deeply bitter man who only lived for short interactions with his family, bursts of adrenaline during the fights, and most of all Cersei. When he comes alive again, he starts thinking back

The point of this post was: life in Westeros is cruel, and sometimes you have to choose. Dismissing Jaime just like that with quick emotional judging because of an act which wasn't even the worst thing he has done is, I feel, unfair to Martin's world's greys.

Great post OP, I can imagine that in his situation with his reputation pushing Bran out the window is a logical act.

About him not protecting Elia and her children, how much is known about that timeline, it might not even have been possible. Jaime had to stay with Aerys under his orders and it's not before the sack has started IIRC that Aerys orders the pyromancers to burn down the city, and I do think Elia and her kids were killed very soon after the sack started.

[LordStoneheart]

Ned doesn't even condemn him... and it's HIS SON he threw out the window. That, to me, speaks volumes.

Why do you think he doesn't condemn him?

[WhiteOwl18]

Ok, this is the last thing I'm going to say on this thread. Children die. It's tragic but it's true. In Westeros they die from illness, war or are just plain murdered. Any of those deaths are tragic. Dying from illness is inevitable. Dying in a war is less so, but still expected. It's very tragic and definitely not fair, but well, that's what happens in a war: people die, even children. Jaime didn't try to kill Bran in a war: he did it because he saw him having sex with his sister. He put himself in that situation and then tried to cover up for his own mess. I really cannot undersand how you think that is OK. If you don't want to get caught doing something, there are two solutions: be very carefull or, even better, don't do it at all! Oh, and for me there is no difference between murder and attempted murder: it's the intention that counts. The fact that Bran didn't die was pure luck.

[Minsc]

About him not protecting Elia and her children, how much is known about that timeline, it might not even have been possible. Jaime had to stay with Aerys under his orders and it's not before the sack has started IIRC that Aerys orders the pyromancers to burn down the city, and I do think Elia and her kids were killed very soon after the sack started.

I doubt that Gregor and Amory just teleported from the city gates into the Royal Champers, moreover there is just the issue of how he didn't even attempt to go protect them.

[Welease Woger]

I doubt that Gregor and Amory just teleported from the city gates into the Royal Champers, moreover there is just the issue of how he didn't even attempt to go protect them.

Well, I think he reasoned that he was only one, he wouldn't be able to save them after a dozen Lannister knights showed up anyway, he would only get himself killed if he tried. Why would he do that? Because he took an oath? The same oath he just broke a few minutes before?

[David Selig]

Well, I think he reasoned that he was only one, he wouldn't be able to save them after a dozen Lannister knights showed up anyway, he would only get himself killed if he tried. Why would he do that? Because he took an oath? The same oath he just broke a few minutes before?

The Lannister knights won't dare touch him because Tywin would have their heads,

[Minsc]

Well, I think he reasoned that he was only one, he wouldn't be able to save them after a dozen Lannister knights showed up anyway, he would only get himself killed if he tried. Why would he do that? Because he took an oath? The same oath he just broke a few minutes before?

Because they are an innocent woman and two young children and not a psychotic mad man that wants to burn down an entire city.

[Welease Woger]

Because they are an innocent woman and two young children and not a psychotic mad man that wants to burn down an entire city.

Again, he wasn't going to be able to save them anyway.

The Lannister knights won't dare touch him because Tywin would have their heads,

Now, that's a better argument. He could use the "do you know who I am?" line. But it wouldn't work for long, eventually Tywin himself would show up and the stalemate couldn't remain forever. Eventually either Jaime would have to yield or die.

[Minsc]

Again, he wasn't going to be able to save them anyway.

Now, that's a better argument. He could use the "do you know who I am?" line. But it wouldn't work for long, eventually Tywin himself would show up and the stalemate couldn't remain forever. Eventually either Jaime would have to yield or die.

How did Arthur Dayne and his fellow Kingsguard respond when Ned and his allies arrived at the Tower of Joy? Did they just shrug their shoulders and say they are outnumbered thus let Ned and company passed them?

If Jaime is standing between Elia and her kids and openly refusing anyone access to them without a fight then Tywin will just order his men to stand down.

[Welease Woger]

Arthur Dayne and his fellow Kingsguard were honorable knights following their oaths. Jaime had just broken his oath. He doesn't see himself as a kingsguard anymore.

But I don't know what he could achieve if he played the "I'm a Lannister" card, probably you're right.

[Count Balerion]

Remind me not to introduce my nephew to this group. :laugh:

[centerfold1986]

It would be rather interesting to know Jaime before he became a knight or before he started sleeping with his sister. Is he a product of his environment where the Royal Family ( and direct boss of his father) openly married within family? Was the emotional trauma of having to choose between his duty and dream of being a knight or side with his father the reason why he has become such an unfeeling, uncaring person. In my eyes, Jaime is simply a sociopath or close enough due to his early life. Any acts of heroism we see may only be him developing a sense of empathy that was stunted as a young man. He, more than all others, is the result of how the world and culture of Westeros effects those caught amongst the wars and political schemes.

To me, Jaime isn't meant to be seen as a hero or a villain. He, along with the suffering small folk, slaves, and naive children is supposed to be seen as the result of such an unhealthy world and political system.

Another idea that came to me while I was writing is this. Look at Arya and Sansa and how they've developed as ppl during all this. Arya has killed multiple ppl and we love her because we've seen her childhood first hand. Now imagine her 20 years older and has to choose the life of a child or her family? Incest and age aside, is she not that different than Jaime?

[Greywind84]

Its like saying Walder Frey was justified for the Red Wedding because it put his family on the winning side (for the moment). Sometimes the end doesn't justify the means.

[Minsc]

Arthur Dayne and his fellow Kingsguard were honorable knights following their oaths. Jaime had just broken his oath. He doesn't see himself as a kingsguard anymore.

Then he cannot complain when people give him a mocking nickname and distrust his sense of honor.

[danm_999]

How easy is to say "fuck" and condemn two consenting adults that loved themselves for the whole of their lifes against all and everything. West Side Story? Juliet and Romeo? All of them condemnable, because they "fuck".

Well, in my book it's not a crime to be in love with someone, it is not a crime to live the phisical part of love with consenting adults.

There is no crime there, so you have no point.

We can agree to disagree, if you want. If you believe to have the right to tell people which consenting adult is their right to love or not. By the way, even if you believe to have the right to tell somebody who he should love, you have not. Sorry.

Oh please. Re-read my post. The crime isn't loving his sister, or even fucking her. It's treason.

Because as much as you want to spin it as some great romance, what Cersei and Jaime were doing was grossly selfish, and endangered their children, and the lives of countless others in the war they'd inevitably cause. And neither of them gave a shit. I reiterate, Jaime's plan was to kill anyone who found out, then and there, consequences be damned. This isn't the Jets and the Sharks or the Montagues and the Caputels. Those loves promised to end strife.

I mean, Jaime joked about causing a war with Robert for Cersei, and so unless you can explain to me why Cersei and Jaime's relationship should be prioritised above countless lives of innocents smallfolk and noble alike, this is just more slock for the Jaime pity party.

So I'll say this; Jaime and Cersei can be together, so long as neither of them had actively sought dynastic power, or tried to cover up their affair more competantly than not at all. But if they seek power, if they're cavalier about hiding their Kingdom shattering affair, and they still refuse to forego their affair, they deserve all the scorn I'm heaping on them and more.

[Dagon]

Hello? He was a villain. He had to go through deep personal growth to reach the point of being human. It's what makes him such an interesting and dynamic character. Nobody expects you to forgive him for his past sins - he certainly doesn't.