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Stannis' offer to Jon


Rysler

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I was wondering what's the common opinion on Jon declining Stannis' offer of legitimization and lordship of Winterfell. Couldn't find a thread so I made one.



In my own opinion, I agree that deserting the Night's Watch to join Robb's campaign in aGoT would've been a folly. One soldier wouldn't have made much of a difference, the Watch was starting to face a serious threat and it would've been treacherous to boot. So good job there, Jon.



BUT I think refusing the mentioned offer was not a smart move, even if Jon hadn't ended up as a stabbing post for his brothers. In one sweep Jon could have united the North once more, carried on the Stark legacy, avenged and honored the memory of Ned and Robb, retaken Winterfell for the Starks and helped Stannis save the realm. Justice and honor, and what's the harm in some personal benefits?



The main arguments for this were keeping his honor and vows as well as fighting the Others, I believe. But helping Stannis win the throne and Wardening the North would have been the best of preparations for the Long Night coming. Stannis is the only king candidate who actually gives a damn about it and as the Warden Jon could greatly support the Watch, like Ned did. And if it's honor we're talking about, what about Robb's and Ned's? They were cruelly betrayed and murdered and Jon had a chance to put some right into it, to continue their fight. I say he should have taken it. He should have pledged for the rightful king and taken his place as the Warden of the North.



Thoughts?


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One of the moments where I thought "thank god for that." Thing is, ASOIAF isn't the Stark story, or at least no more than anybody elses, its not about them overcoming the odds.



It would've been the easy thing to do, and perhaps its would've sorted the North out, although more likely we'll still be in the same conundrum we're at now, the Mannis freezing outside Winterfell fighting the forced loyalties of all his enemies, Bolton will declare that Jon is still a bastard and Stannis is no true King to legitimise him, the Lannisters will back that train of thought and not a lot would be much different. Our faith would still be in what Stannis Baratheon can accomplish.



Jon has a commitment to the Nights Watch and he honoured it, if he survives the stabbing I hope he continues to honour it, the others are the real threat, the Starks be damned.


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If there is one thing we have learned, it is that honor is not the way to go if you want to keep your head. Especially if you are a Stark.



Ned does the honorable thing and tells Cersei to get out of town. He loses his head.



Robb does the honorable thing and marries Jeyne / executes Rickard. He loses his head.



Let us hope Jon will not follow the same fate.


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If there is one thing we have learned, it is that honor is not the way to go if you want to keep your head. Especially if you are a Stark.

Ned does the honorable thing and tells Cersei to get out of town. He loses his head.

Robb does the honorable thing and marries Jeyne / executes Rickard. He loses his head.

Let us hope Jon will not follow the same fate.

But Ned loses his head after doing the dishonorable thing and lying to the realm about planning treason against Joffrey, and Robb was also dishonorable when sleeping with Jeyne in the first place. So it is not that simple. Fak u dolan.

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In one sweep Jon could have united the North once more, carried on the Stark legacy, avenged and honored the memory of Ned and Robb, retaken Winterfell for the Starks and helped Stannis save the realm. Justice and honor, and what's the harm in some personal benefits?

I believe this is wrong. Jon surely didn't reason about it, but t would have revealed itself a very poor decision.

At this point in time there isn't any reason to believe that:

- Tywyin dies soon;

- Alliance among Tyrell and Lannisters weakens (and turns into war?)

- Aegon will land soon to fight the south

Also:

- At least half - I believe more - of the original army belonging to Robb has already been smashed.

- Winter is coming, harvest reserves are already running out and more war would deplete them faster.

- White Walkers and Whiggs are coming from north, the entire North will soon face that enemy left alone.

At these conditions, the north would count itself lucky if it could maintain control over the north itself. This means regaining control over Moath Cailin, avoid new invaders from coming north and fight back the WW army.

BUT:

- Lannister and Tyrell have an army many times greater than the north

- The Iron Man would be soon enough united and fight again against the north

- Stannis would ask/pretend Jon to follow himself SOUTH to take back the IT with all that remains of his army

The north would just loose again by going south again, this time without the alliance of the RiverLands, the Frey or others.

The north would smash his army again and it would never recover it, given the invasion of WW coming and that most of people left behind are women, children and weak/sick guys.

The north is in conditions to maintain the control over the north (maybe, probably not) - provided no one with dragons invades - and that is it.

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Jon's decision wasn't just to keep his vows though. He thinks about having to burn the Godswood & taking Winterfell from his little brothers. I think those factors together had as much to do with declining the offer since those are his final thoughts before taking his decision to Stannis. Maybe deep down he does know Bran & Rickon aren't dead because their wolves aren't. Also, his dreams keep reinforcing to him that he is not a Stark. I kinda have a feeling Bloodraven had a hand in influencing those dreams just like Bran's 3-eyed crow dreams.

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If there is one thing we have learned, it is that honor is not the way to go if you want to keep your head. Especially if you are a Stark.

Ned does the honorable thing and tells Cersei to get out of town. He loses his head.

Robb does the honorable thing and marries Jeyne / executes Rickard. He loses his head.

Let us hope Jon will not follow the same fate.

Jon won't go that way because Melisandre is at the wall.

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If Jon and I were anything alike, he would have run from his vows the second he heard that Robb called the banners. I do not believe that he would have made any difference, but perhaps he would have stopped Robb from screwing this random Westerling- because of Jons fear for getting bastards. - But he should anyhow joined up with Robb, because Robb was his brother, and his "father" was in danger. There is nothing more important than family.


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The main arguments for this were keeping his honor and vows as well as fighting the Others, I believe. But helping Stannis win the throne and Wardening the North would have been the best of preparations for the Long Night coming. Stannis is the only king candidate who actually gives a damn about it and as the Warden Jon could greatly support the Watch, like Ned did. And if it's honor we're talking about, what about Robb's and Ned's? They were cruelly betrayed and murdered and Jon had a chance to put some right into it, to continue their fight. I say he should have taken it. He should have pledged for the rightful king and taken his place as the Warden of the North.

Thoughts?

I could be missing something here, but I don't get how helping Stannis win the throne provides that much help to fight the others at the wall. Seems to me that if the threat of ice demons is as real & urgent as it appears, then Stannis' war needs to take a beck seat!! I don't see Jon helping Stannis win IT & saving the realm; I see Stannis helping Jon save the realm so there's an still an IT to fight for.

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Winterfell wasn't in Stannis' hands, it was not Stannis' to give.



Jon keeps to the Old Gods. Burning weirwoods doesn't belong in there. He knows that his father's tree is older than Winterfell itself, that it is the heart of Winterfell. He wouldn't kill that.



Jon 'getting' Winterfell like that might not have been seen as a positive thing by the North. Perhaps even a bastard trying to climb up higher or something. (Although they might hear of Robb's decree later on?)



The North didn't know that Ned wanted to support Stannis for KotSK, so Stannis at the Wall giving out all kinds of positions, acting as if the North was his without even winning the IT might have not been appreciated. They only 'supported' him after Jon sent Stannis the right way to get anything even resembling an army.


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But Ned loses his head after doing the dishonorable thing and lying to the realm about planning treason against Joffrey, and Robb was also dishonorable when sleeping with Jeyne in the first place. So it is not that simple. Fak u dolan.

Ned would have lost his head regardless.

Robb did the honorable thing by marrying Jeyne.

When it mattered the most, they both did the honorable thing and it eventually led to their downfall.

K.

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Winterfell wasn't in Stannis' hands, it was not Stannis' to give.

Jon keeps to the Old Gods. Burning weirwoods doesn't belong in there. He knows that his father's tree is older than Winterfell itself, that it is the heart of Winterfell. He wouldn't kill that.

Jon 'getting' Winterfell like that might not have been seen as a positive thing by the North. Perhaps even a bastard trying to climb up higher or something. (Although they might hear of Robb's decree later on?)

The North didn't know that Ned wanted to support Stannis for KotSK, so Stannis at the Wall giving out all kinds of positions, acting as if the North was his without even winning the IT might have not been appreciated. They only 'supported' him after Jon sent Stannis the right way to get anything even resembling an army.

I agree.

Burning the Godswood & taking Lordship of Winterfell were very relevant factors in Jon's decision even if Stannis had the right to offer it...which he didn't IMO.

Also, if we're to consider Stannis King by right of law, then by right of law, The Nights Watch takes no part in quarrels of the Realm & isn't under the authority of the King on th IT.

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I felt like it wasn't so much a decision against this specific offer, but a general decision to stay at the wall, finish what was started and deal with the "bigger" problem (saving the people from the threat beyond the wall vs. Westeros politics).


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I was under the impression that he was considering it until Ghost and his weirwood colour (he believes Ghost belongs to the Gods) ran up to him and then he knew what he needed to do: take the LC position.



Eta: Him having accepted WF (let's take out the consequences of the tree being burned, because he wouldn't go for that, and the North not rebelling against it) wouldn't have been that bad a thing for 'The Cause' because at least the North could have stood as one under a Stark again, rather than what's going on now: are they divided, working toward the same goal, just plain lost?



That's why I don't think (assuming that Jon lives, Stannis pulls a vanishing act and Robb's decree reaches Jon) it's a bad thing for Jon to accept, even temporarily - until the Long Night is gone - the leadership over the North. If Stannis doesn't quickly make the North one again, someone else might need to do it, because if not then people will just be lost when the Others come. People need to understand and right now they don't.



No help will come from the South or IT, so the North will need to solve their own problems.


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IMO Jon didn't take up Stannis offer for a multitude of reasons,


1) like Ghost's Shadow said, Winterfell wasn't Stannis' to give.


2) Jon had already made the decision not to join the war once. Leaving the wall after Robb died would have felt like a betrayal of Robb's and Ned's memory. If there was one time were he should have left, it was when Robb was going off to war. That bridge was burned when Jon returned to the wall.


3) in spite of Quorin explicitly telling Jon do spy on the wildlings and do whatever they ask of him, Jon did feel sympathy for them, and did love Ygritte in some way. He was already struggling with his vows, already feeling like a traitor - remember when Jon is locked in the ice cell, he thinks to himself that Robb died as a King, and he will die as a traitor. Jon himself is having rouble coming to terms with his "choices", and since he loved Ygritte, he feels like he did truly betray his vows. In short, he didn't feel that he "deserved" to have winterfell, or any other sort of recognition.


4) He loved Robb, and though Jon wanted/desired Winterfell for a time, receiving his father's seat now, would only have confonrted him to the truth of Robb's, Bran's and Rickon's death. It's similar to Ned who felt that he didn't derserve Winterfell and Catelyn, because they'd been meant for Brandon.

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4) That too, yes. As a child he once during play said he was going to be Lord of Winterfell, and even growing up he might have on some level desired it (it must be confusing to grow up a bastard among the trueborn children), but there's no way he truly, truly wanted it because it meant that every other son/sibling died. He's no Frey.


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I was under the impression that he was considering it until Ghost and his weirwood colour (he believes Ghost belongs to the Gods) ran up to him and then he knew what he needed to do: take the LC position.

Eta: Him having accepted WF (let's take out the consequences of the tree being burned, because he wouldn't go for that, and the North not rebelling against it) wouldn't have been that bad a thing for 'The Cause' because at least the North could have stood as one under a Stark again, rather than what's going on now: are they divided, working toward the same goal, just plain lost?

That's why I don't think (assuming that Jon lives, Stannis pulls a vanishing act and Robb's decree reaches Jon) it's a bad thing for Jon to accept, even temporarily - until the Long Night is gone - the leadership over the North. If Stannis doesn't quickly make the North one again, someone else might need to do it, because if not then people will just be lost when the Others come. People need to understand and right now they don't.

No help will come from the South or IT, so the North will need to solve their own problems.

You are right except its the decision to not take WF.

In Jon's last chapter of SofS:

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.”

A few pages along he enters the hall with Ghost & is informed by Aemon that his name has just been put forth as LC candidate.

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I was wondering what's the common opinion on Jon declining Stannis' offer of legitimization and lordship of Winterfell. Couldn't find a thread so I made one.

In my own opinion, I agree that deserting the Night's Watch to join Robb's campaign in aGoT would've been a folly. One soldier wouldn't have made much of a difference, the Watch was starting to face a serious threat and it would've been treacherous to boot. So good job there, Jon.

BUT I think refusing the mentioned offer was not a smart move, even if Jon hadn't ended up as a stabbing post for his brothers. In one sweep Jon could have united the North once more, carried on the Stark legacy, avenged and honored the memory of Ned and Robb, retaken Winterfell for the Starks and helped Stannis save the realm. Justice and honor, and what's the harm in some personal benefits?

The main arguments for this were keeping his honor and vows as well as fighting the Others, I believe. But helping Stannis win the throne and Wardening the North would have been the best of preparations for the Long Night coming. Stannis is the only king candidate who actually gives a damn about it and as the Warden Jon could greatly support the Watch, like Ned did. And if it's honor we're talking about, what about Robb's and Ned's? They were cruelly betrayed and murdered and Jon had a chance to put some right into it, to continue their fight. I say he should have taken it. He should have pledged for the rightful king and taken his place as the Warden of the North.

Thoughts?

I disagree completely with you:

Jon never would have united the North under the conditions required by Stannis' deal. Is only Stannis and Mel's alienation with Northern culture and reliance on ineffectual floppy ears/displays of power that leads them to believe that Jon accepting the deal=Northern unification under Stannis.

The Northerners likely would have seen Jon as an up-jumped deserter bastard who bowed to a Southron pretender and his sorceress in order to steal his family's birthright and, oh yeah, burned down a sacred Heart Tree in the process. And that's exactly what it would have been. Not sure how this is conductive to South/North unification.

Also, I don´t necessarily see helping Stannis win the throne equal to preparing for the battle with the Others seeing as Stannis campaign for the throne comes first and foremost to him. The preparations for the long night would have taken a back seat to Stannis struggle for the IT. Given his decimated resources in ASOS that would have been a looong wait. Stannis might see the true threat and he is clearly willing to help the Watch, but in his terms. Looking more closely, besides coming to their aid against Mance's forces (which is a big deal, don't get me wrong) he has done little to nothing to strengthen the Wall besides leaving his wounded and feeble behind at Jon's request.

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