The Stone Beast Breathing Shadow Fire

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This includes input from FrozenFire3, Budj, Alia of the Knife and theguyfromthevale.

Speaking for myself, this vision in Dany's House of the Undying is easily the hardest to pin down. Most of the ones we see are pretty easy to figure out or at least there's a good consensus on the solution. Stannis is the blue-eyed king without a shadow, the blue flower in the ice wall is Jon, the mummer's dragon is probably Aegon.

In the "slayer of lies" triplet, we get this:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

What the hell is this thing? It has almost a hellish, demonic imagery.

Because the first two visions in this sequence relate to Stannis and Aegon (general consensus), the prevailing idea is that these lies have to do with treachery, harmful deceit or something otherwise "bad."

FrozenFire3 pointed out, in the R+L=J thread, some interestingly symmetric descriptions of Rhaegar and Jon. One is from Feast, the other is from Dance, so it's possible that at one time they were in the same book.

Here's Rhaegar, from Chapter 24: Cersei:

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange had floated behind his helm, like flames.

Here's Jon, from Chapter 30: Melisandre:

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.

By the end of ADwD Jon is by estimation around seventeen years old and is wearing black.

theguyfromthevale chimed in to suggest that perhaps the reason Jon is only half-seen is because he is, quite literally, only half-seen: The visible half of the Stark side of him, and the hidden half of the Targaryen side. Furthermore, that he is half-seen behind a curtain and diffused with fire might suggest that fire is the "missing" half, the half behind the curtain. This vision also depicts Jon as a shadow.

One of the less-literal readings of the "waking the stone dragon" prophecy is that it has to do with a dormant Targaryen identity, and the awakening of that identity. The stone beast is winged and breathes shadow fire. In ADWD, a literal dragon, Drogon, is described as "...the black one ... the winged shadow." Melisandre also sees visions "through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled hard against a blue sky." Seeing as many of Melisandre's visions tend to be literal (if gauzy and/or vague), I'm wondering if these visions aren't of dragons that will be flying in the future.

If you accept that dragons can be both literal in meaning and symbolic (a Targaryen), then in theory imagery and language used to describe one might describe the other. That is to say, "winged shadows" can describe literal dragons, but might also be a visual representation of a metaphorical dragon.

Which is a long way of saying that I (and we, based on how the discussion ended) wonder if the stone beast taking wing and breathing shadow fire isn't a metaphorical visualization of the stone dragon awakening — Jon. Jon has been directly described in terms of flames and shadows, like the dragons. Why describe the creature as a beast though, and not a dragon, if it is one?

Perhaps the beast is really part dragon and part wolf (think Bittersteel and his winged horse), and as such "beast" as a broad term was the best visual approximation Dany could give.

Jon is described in terms of being a beast on multiple occasions. Slynt tells Jon that "the mark of the beast is on" him. "The mark of the beast is on him, that wolf of his." Robb is also described as a beast when the Freys lied about him turning into a wolf to kill Jinglebell, and again "mark of the beast" is used. When Jon shows up with Ghost in the hall in SoS, he's called a "beastling." In this sense, the term beast could either describe some wolf-dragon hybrid that defied immediate description and/or an allusion to a word thrown at Jon himself for being a warg.

The phrase "beast" is also used by Davos to describe the wildfire at the Blackwater: "... some vast beast had let out a roar, and green flames were all around them." Again, not a literal dragon, but a linkage between beast and fire, made more interesting because it's putting a non-living thing in animal terms.

So what's the lie that would hypothetically be slayed here?

The lie that Jon is Ned's son and not a Targaryen. The lie doesn't necessarily have to imply capital-E Evil.

Why, hypothetically, does this thing seem so ominous in the vision?

Because the vision is from Dany's point of view and Jon being revealed as a Targaryen might be a threat to her, either politically (coming before her in the succession) or prophetically (Jon's is the song of ice and fire yada yada).

Why does Jon appear twice, once as the blue flower and once possibly as the stone beast breathing shadow fire?

The two sets of triplets are seen for different reasons and have different connotations. What occurs in one triplet doesn't necessarily have to influence what occurs in another. It also shows two perspective of Jon, the fire (the shadow beast) and the ice (the wall).

theguyfromthevale has an interesting take on the "winged wolf" vision, but I think one theory's enough in this thread for now. :P

[Arya kiddin']

Interesting.

The one problem I have:

It's "beast breathing shadow fire" and not "shadow beast breathing fire".

Another one:

Smoking tower, Smoke in AA prophecy and smoke in this prophecy if turn out to be the same or even at the same place, I don't quite see this happening. :dunno:

[JungWheats]

I've been thining that the beast and shadow fire are JonCon arriving and spreading the plague. Griffins are beasts and he's literally turning to stone. This would also leave Dany free to slay the lie that Aegon is a Targ and not a Blackfyre (shadow fire).

[Sullen]

I've been thining that the beast and shadow fire are JonCon arriving and spreading the plague. Griffins are beasts and he's literally turning to stone. This would also leave Dany free to slay the lie that Aegon is a Targ and not a Blackfyre (shadow fire).

This is the obvious (and in my opinion, the right) answer.

[JungWheats]

Its pretty straight forward, especially since he said beast as opposed to griffin. He tried to hide it a little, so there's a definite chance that the interpretation is correct.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This is an interesting new perspective, but how would Dany slay the lie that is finding out Ned is not Jon's father?

[Jon of the Dead]

I've been thining that the beast and shadow fire are JonCon arriving and spreading the plague. Griffins are beasts and he's literally turning to stone. This would also leave Dany free to slay the lie that Aegon is a Targ and not a Blackfyre (shadow fire).

:agree:

And I don't think he's only spreading the plague: he's spreading the lie (shadow) of Aegon being real too. Anyway, that's my 2 cents

[Kienn]

Its pretty straight forward, especially since he said beast as opposed to griffin. He tried to hide it a little, so there's a definite chance that the interpretation is correct.

Pretty sure it would be more clear if he HAD used griffin... a negative is not proof.

[Longspear Ryk]

i assumed it was jon connington symbolized by a Griffin aka the stoned beast....the stone representing his Greyscaleness.... and the shadow fire representing blackfyre....

as in jon connington bringing the aegon and his blackfyre blood into power..

maybe the tower symbolizes the one he stood on top of and had that awkward romantic moment with Raeghar.. which was his family's castle that he takes back

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I've thought of the Connington angle, but if that's the case, isn't that and the mummer's dragon redundant? The lie JonCon would be spreading is the lie that Aegon is real, isn't it? And if so, isn't that just a repeat of what the mummer's dragon vision is? It's the same lie, twice.

Its pretty straight forward, especially since he said beast as opposed to griffin. He tried to hide it a little, so there's a definite chance that the interpretation is correct.

I don't see how not identifying the beast as a griffin proves that it is in fact a griffin.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Someone made another interesting theory that the beast is a sphinx which is Sarella as Alleras and the tower is a representation of oldtown.

[Ygrain]

Why describe the creature as a beast though, and not a dragon, if it is one?

I think GRRM is using the same trick as with the "blue flower" instead of a "blue rose" - a more general term to muddy the waters. Until the blue flower was indeed pinned as a rose in Dany's next chapter, there was still a chance that it might be something else. A blue rose would be an instant giveaway of Lyanna and Jon as well as a dragon would be of a Targaryen, if the beast is really a dragon. While the blue flower was relatively easy to pin down as there isn't exactly an abundance of significant blue flowers, there are more candidates for a beast because of the various sigils. However, the only beast breathing fire (whatever its nature) or being used in association with stone is still a dragon, not a griffin, not a wolf.

The question remains whether the dragon truly signifies Jon, making thus the doubled imagery somewhat redundant, or whether it might refer to another person of Targaryen descent - e.g. Shireen. The smoking tower = Castle Black after the events triggered by the Ides of Marsh, stone = greyscale, shadow fire = its spreading, or whatever other effect it might have, as I am sure that it is to be a plot point in close future.

[Sullen]

I don't see how not identifying the beast as a griffin proves that it is in fact a griffin.

It doesn't, I feel that what s/he meant to say is that the fact that the very vague word "beast" is used counters the meta-argument that the Stone Beast being Connington is too obvious, and thus a false trail.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

Yep, I've seen (and am generally open to) the idea that it has something to do with Shireen, a Targaryen descendant also afflicted with greyscale. The main catch there is that I have trouble pinning down the "lie" at work here.

And it also occurred to me that the tower in question might be the King's Tower, which would have significance for Jon for obvious reasons.

I would be much more open to the idea that it was Connington if it didn't make the mummer's dragon redundant. So either the same lie (Aegon is not Aegon) is repeated twice in the set, something I very strongly doubt, the mummer's dragon is not Aegon, or the stone beast is not JonCon.

It doesn't, I feel that what s/he meant to say is that the fact that the very vague word "beast" is used counters the meta-argument that the Stone Beast being Connington is too obvious, and thus a false trail.

Same could be said for why it's a beast and not a dragon. Or a wolf, or a bear, or ...

[Ygrain]

Yep, I've seen (and am generally open to) the idea that it has something to do with Shireen, a Targaryen descendant also afflicted with greyscale. The main catch there is that I have trouble pinning down the "lie" at work here.

And it also occurred to me that the tower in question might be the King's Tower, which would have significance for Jon for obvious reasons.

I would be much more open to the idea that it was Connington if it didn't make the mummer's dragon redundant. So either the same lie (Aegon is not Aegon) is repeated twice in the set, something I very strongly doubt, the mummer's dragon is not Aegon, or the stone beast is not JonCon.

Another option could be Tyrion - the stone part could still happen, and lies and Tyrion go together very well. He could be symbolized as a dragon either because secretTargOMG or because he will be the third dragonrider who doesn't have to be a Targ, but I cannot think about the smoking tower meaning.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

Great analogy as always Apple Martini

Reading this, thoughts came into my mind about the Shadow Tower. Like maybe he will be brought there so Melisandre can revive him away from the NW/impending Wall collapse etc. It would tie in well to the tower part of the prophecy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Great analogy as always Apple Martini

Reading this, thoughts came into my mind about the Shadow Tower. Like maybe he will be brought there so Melisandre can revive him away from the NW/impending Wall collapse etc. It would tie in well to the tower part of the prophecy.

Interesting. And there's that shadow bit again.

[JungWheats]

Good call, Apple Martini. I hadn't considered that JonCon being the stone beast and the shadow fire would make the Mummer's Dragon redundant. Kind of a duh, moment for me there. In theory, this could still be a point towards JonCon and be only the Greyscale, but its not as elegant as it could be, and there's no inherent lie to the Grey Plague idea.

There might not be enough information, yet, for us to know what this means at all.

If its not JonCon, and the redundancy factor now makes me think that it isn't, I'd be inclined to think that it has something to do with the Sphinx motif. We don't really know what the deal with that is, either, except the Alleras/Sarella Sand connection. I just don't think that it could have anything to do with Jon's Targaryen blood because in visions Targaryens are always presented as physical dragons. Dany would know and use the word dragon.

The stone beast could be the Titan of Braavos, but I don't recall any connection with fire there, so its probably not Littlefinger.

It could also be Robert Strong; if Robert Strong is mostly the Mountain, and stones are the children of mountains, then it could be Robert Strong. He was certainly concieved and unleashed from a dark and hellish place (Qyburn's dungeons). But so far theres not really a fire connection with him either, or a tower connection.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Good call, Apple Martini. I hadn't considered that JonCon being the stone beast and the shadow fire would make the Mummer's Dragon redundant. Kind of a duh, moment for me there. In theory, this could still be a point towards JonCon and be only the Greyscale, but its not as elegant as it could be, and there's no inherent lie to the Grey Plague idea.

There might not be enough information, yet, for us to know what this means at all.

If its not JonCon, and the redundancy factor now makes me think that it isn't, I'd be inclined to think that it has something to do with the Sphinx motif. We don't really know what the deal with that is, either, except the Alleras/Sarella Sand connection. I just don't think that it could have anything to do with Jon's Targaryen blood because in visions Targaryens are always presented as physical dragons. Dany would know and use the word dragon.

Yea that theory is possible, sarella being alleras is a lie and she is spreading the lie that she is alleras and she also seems pretty interested in Dany from AFFC.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If its not JonCon, and the redundancy factor now makes me think that it isn't, I'd be inclined to think that it has something to do with the Sphinx motif. We don't really know what the deal with that is, either, except the Alleras/Sarella Sand connection. I just don't think that it could have anything to do with Jon's Targaryen blood because in visions Targaryens are always presented as physical dragons. Dany would know and use the word dragon.

I actually agree with this. It's why I suggested that what might actually have been seen was a dragon-wolf hybrid, sort of like Bittersteel's winged horse he took for his sigil. So not a dragon or a wolf, but both.

ETA: It's also possible that the beast is obscured by the shadow fire and/or the fact that it's stone, making specific identification difficult.

Yea that theory is possible, sarella being alleras is a lie and she is spreading the lie that she is alleras and she also seems pretty interested in Dany from AFFC.

I'm not against the Sphinx theory per se, but I'm not sure that Sarella being Alleras is a lie on the scale of Stannis not being Azor Ahai and Aegon not being Aegon. It's also possible that it is a Sphinx of some sort (but what Sphinx breathes fire?), but in metaphorical terms (the Sphinx is the riddle and the riddler, whatever the word is) and not necessarily Sarella.