R+L = J v 64

[Addam of Hull]

Pretty complex theory to have such an anti climatic ending though. It also depends on Aegon being fake, not accepted or dying first.

ASOIAF is a fantasy series. In all honesty, the question of who gets to be king isn't really that big of a factor in how good or bad the ending is, at least to me.

[Alia of the knife]

I strongly suspect she didn't tell Arthur, and the tragic consequences are what led to her suicide. Think about Sansa going to Cersei, oblivious to the consequences and Doran's admonition to Arianne "someone always tells." In these diverse situations the "tellers" had very different motivations, what ties them together are the dire consequences.

I also agree with Zupoleon that it probably wasn't Ashara herself who went to SE, it would have been remarked upon don't you think? Nor does it seem like a message you could entrust to a raven upon reflection. So this could be where Wylla comes in. Having always wondered about the role of Ethan Glover, I wonder if he was included because he was the one who made first contact with the messenger at SE? Total speculation, take it fwiw.

I do think it very likely that Ashara went personally to ToJ at some point. I've suggested in the past that perhaps she brought some conveyance hoping to evacuate Lyanna, and this is why Ned was able to carry Lyanna's body out, but not the others.

So little to go on, it's like doing an all white puzzle! Just keep shifting the bits around til you find some that click together ;)

That's a great comparison, (and I'm betting it was DS who ratted out Arianne, but that's another thread). :cool4:

Going further with this speculation, while Ashara was not "nailed down," I always got the impression it had to do with whatever she was doing between Starfall and the TOJ.

I don't think she went to SE. I would assume that to some degree, she was still recovering from childbirth, either physically, emotionally, or both.

While she might make the smaller trek to the TOJ every now and again, she may not have been up to going to SE, so the Wylla theory fits.

And while she may have been willing to keep quiet about R+L and then J, when Lyanna got sick, she then most likely decided that Ned needed to know. :frown5:

[FrozenFire3]

That's a great comparison, (and I'm betting it was DS who ratted out Arianne, but that's another thread). :cool4:

Going further with this speculation, while Ashara was not "nailed down," I always got the impression it had to do with whatever she was doing between Starfall and the TOJ.

I don't think she went to SE. I would assume that to some degree, she was still recovering from childbirth, either physically, emotionally, or both.

While she might make the smaller trek to the TOJ every now and again, she may not have been up to going to SE, so the Wylla theory fits.

And while she may have been willing to keep quiet about R+L and then J, when Lyanna got sick, she then most likely decided that Ned needed to know. :frown5:

:agree:

If my reading of the following passage is correct, we could even get first-hand answers... sooner or later ;)

Lemore slipped her robe over her head. "I know you only rise so early in hopes of seeing turtles."

"I like to watch the sun come up as well." It was like watching a maiden rising naked from her bath. Some might be prettier than others, but every one was full of promise.

Lemore is compared to the sun rising = dawn which is symbol, ancestral weapon and powerful link to House Dayne. Contextually the maiden rising naked from her bath could symbolically refer to rebirth and metaphorically to emersion (with a new identity and maybe a new purpose) from a tragic plunge into water. Ashara anyone? LOL

[finger]

:agree:

If my reading of the following passage is correct, we could even get first-hand answers... sooner or later ;)

Lemore is compared to the sun rising = dawn which is symbol, ancestral weapon and powerful link to House Dayne. Contextually the maiden rising naked from her bath could symbolically refer to rebirth and metaphorically to emersion (with a new identity and maybe a new purpose) from a tragic plunge into water. Ashara anyone? LOL

Good catch, but it seems that Lemore is elder than Ashara should. I'd rather look for her behind Quaithe's mask. Jorah seems to find her familiar, at least on the show.

This one is from Brienne, thinking of Sansa: "She has no home to run to, no father, no mother, no brothers. She might be in the next town, or on a ship to Asshai" (italics in the original).

Sorry, sometimes I forget that Ashara and Aegon are forcibly death and Jon has to be king whatever it takes.

ETA: btw, this happens in the same book where Gilly's son and Mance son's are swapped, Myrcella is swapped with her cousin,... well, twice, actually, Sansa passes as LF's bastard daughter, the Hound hides under a new personality at the Quiet Isle,... and here and there people pretend to be something else.

Or I might be unable to understand what I read, and all that mean that Jon is the hidden king.

[Queen Alienor]

Why does Jon have to be king in the end? I would actually like to see him stay with his siblings (cousins) in the North, maybe as Sansa's or Rickon's hand instead of king. I think he's already had enough of being the ultimate leader from his short time as the LC of the NW even though he is good at it...

[Alia of the knife]

:agree:

If my reading of the following passage is correct, we could even get first-hand answers... sooner or later ;)

Lemore is compared to the sun rising = dawn which is symbol, ancestral weapon and powerful link to House Dayne. Contextually the maiden rising naked from her bath could symbolically refer to rebirth and metaphorically to emersion (with a new identity and maybe a new purpose) from a tragic plunge into water. Ashara anyone? LOL

As always, your eye for detail and nuance are flawless, but your catch for me reenforces my association between the Daynes, dawn and the East.

IMHO, I think she is the woman behind the mask

of the Quaith who are also called Quaith of the

shadows and are shadow binders.

[Audrey Arryn]

Actually I think Ned had to have known that Jon wasn't a bastard, because that's the only context that makes sense. It also, by the way, increases the danger Jon is in from Robert. A bastard is a pain but ultimately not of much political consequence. A legitimate son though, that's another thing entirely.

I always thought he didn't know, cause of the fact that he said he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years, he may have suspected though.

[MtnLion]

Alright. I wasn't sure where to look for that FAQ. I did check the theories page.

One part is still problematic though. Jon Snow is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and I can't think of a precedent for those vows being set aside. Even if he's the rightful king (which presupposes Aegon is fake as Aegon is supposedly older), it makes no matter. I know Stannis didn't think it would be a problem, but it suited his cause to argue that. I suppose you have to add Robb Stark to that list. Hmm.

Sorry if this has already been discussed at length, 64 threads is too many to read.

Robb proposed a way to absolve Jon from his vows, as he drafted his "will". He was going to send a hundred northmen to replace him. But, now you are disputing whether Jon can take the throne. If there is no Night's Watch, or if the only way that Jon can fulfill his vow is to take the Iron Throne, Jon will do so. He certainly does not desire the throne, nor would he; when he discovers his birthright. He would only take it if he had no other choice.

[Jory Cassel]

As always, your eye for detail and nuance are flawless, but your catch for me reenforces my association between the Daynes, dawn and the East.

IMHO, I think she is the woman behind the mask

of the Quaith who are also called Quaith of the

shadows and are shadow binders.

I, too, tend to think that Ashara is indeed Quaithe. Some might say it is too "obvious" or deliberate misleading, yet I find it striking how the words "Then or now" appear exactly two times in this particular order:

“Quaithe? Am I dreaming?” She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. “I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor.”

“You did not dream. Then or now.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur.

Also:

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star."

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.“Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know.Do you?”

[Zupoleon]

Ok, if Ashara is Quaithe, at what point does she go from a dishonored daughter of house Dayne to a prophetic shadowbinder from the East? When / how did she acquire such powers?

[Lyse Stark]

Robb proposed a way to absolve Jon from his vows, as he drafted his "will". He was going to send a hundred northmen to replace him. But, now you are disputing whether Jon can take the throne. If there is no Night's Watch, or if the only way that Jon can fulfill his vow is to take the Iron Throne, Jon will do so. He certainly does not desire the throne, nor would he; when he discovers his birthright. He would only take it if he had no other choice.

Exactly. I'd always imagine that Jon would refuse the throne, only to has it foisted upon him, even when he protests that he is bound to the Night Watch's oath to "take no crowns, no lands, no glory and father no children." But the people and lords force him to take the throne because there is no one more qualified.

[finger]

Why does Jon have to be king in the end? I would actually like to see him stay with his siblings (cousins) in the North, maybe as Sansa's or Rickon's hand instead of king. I think he's already had enough of being the ultimate leader from his short time as the LC of the NW even though he is good at it...

I was ironic. Some guys round here can get even violent if you say he won't.

IMO Rhaegar's ghost in THOTU was right, as it pertains to a ghost in a vision. Aegon will be king, so he needs to be alive for that purpose.

I think the story says only what you get: Rhaegar turns his back to his family just because he was picking up his harp, no second meaning, and so on.

As for Jon, he's been chosen by the wolves. Wolves have a part in the story, as the shadows in Drogo's tent avow.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I always thought he didn't know, cause of the fact that he said he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years, he may have suspected though.

... He definitely knew. That's the entire point/basis of the conversation he had with the Kingsguard. The only way it made any lick of sense for them to be there, knowing that Aegon, Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, was if Jon was the actual king, which he couldn't have been unless he was legitimate. Otherwise they would've been with Viserys. Ned knows how the Kingsguard work, and he knew this.

[complexphoenix]

I am NOT buying this notion that Gerold Hightower's presence means Jon is legitimate. Gerold Hightower was sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar, and then we don't see him again until Ned arrives at the TOJ. If Ser Gerold was the huge stickler for guarding the King that people say he is, why did he stay at the TOJ with Arthur and Oswell? Lyanna's child was at best third in line for the throne at that point, after Rhaegar and Aegon. Shouldn't Gerold have returned to KL with Rhaegar and ended up either at the Trident or in KL when the Sack occurred?

I think it is far more likely that Rhaegar ordered Gerold to stay at the TOJ and Gerold was honor-bound to obey because in the absence of the King, KG obey the next guy in line. Rhaegar's orders to the three went something along the lines of "guard her with your lives and don't let anyone touch her" - orders which, taken literally, forbade them to surrender her to anyone, even her brother, even after all the Targs had been killed or fled. It was the "obey" part of the oath they were referring to, not the "protect the king" part.

[Addam of Hull]

I am NOT buying this notion that Gerold Hightower's presence means Jon is legitimate. Gerold Hightower was sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar, and then we don't see him again until Ned arrives at the TOJ. If Ser Gerold was the huge stickler for guarding the King that people say he is, why did he stay at the TOJ with Arthur and Oswell? Lyanna's child was at best third in line for the throne at that point, after Rhaegar and Aegon. Shouldn't Gerold have returned to KL with Rhaegar and ended up either at the Trident or in KL when the Sack occurred?

I think it is far more likely that Rhaegar ordered Gerold to stay at the TOJ and Gerold was honor-bound to obey because in the absence of the King, KG obey the next guy in line. Rhaegar's orders to the three went something along the lines of "guard her with your lives and don't let anyone touch her" - orders which, taken literally, forbade them to surrender her to anyone, even her brother, even after all the Targs had been killed or fled. It was the "obey" part of the oath they were referring to, not the "protect the king" part.

Well, when Gerold left, the King had four of the seven Kingsguard securing him. That is more than adequate protection and historically, it is not unusual for not every member to be present protecting the King directly. You're right that Rhaegar likely left an order for Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell to protect Lyanna. We don't know at what speed news reaches the Tower of Joy, but what we do know is that by the time Eddard reaches the Tower of Joy, they are all aware of the events have transpired. The issue here is that if Viserys is first-in-line, and therefore the King, at least one member of the Kingsguard ought to have gone to him. The first duty of the Kingsguard is to protect the King. It's Gerold Hightower himself that points out that the men guarding Viserys aren't members of the Kingsguard, which is a huge narrative hint. Obeying Rhaegar's orders are important, but how can they take precedent over protecting the King, which is the very reason why their order exists? It can't, which means that the reason they haven't sent one of their number to watch over Viserys is that Viserys isn't the king.

Granted, I don't take that as proof, but I do think it is a very strong indication of that Jon is not a bastard, but trueborn.

[Ygrain]

Well, when Gerold left, the King had four of the seven Kingsguard securing him. That is more than adequate protection and historically, it is not unusual for not every member to be present protecting the King directly. You're right that Rhaegar likely left an order for Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell to protect Lyanna. We don't know at what speed news reaches the Tower of Joy, but what we do know is that by the time Eddard reaches the Tower of Joy, they are all aware of the events have transpired. The issue here is that if Viserys is first-in-line, and therefore the King, at least one member of the Kingsguard ought to have gone to him. The first duty of the Kingsguard is to protect the King. It's Gerold Hightower himself that points out that the men guarding Viserys aren't members of the Kingsguard, which is a huge narrative hint. Obeying Rhaegar's orders are important, but how can they take precedent over protecting the King, which is the very reason why their order exists? It can't, which means that the reason they haven't sent one of their number to watch over Viserys is that Viserys isn't the king.

Granted, I don't take that as proof, but I do think it is a very strong indication of that Jon is not a bastard, but trueborn.

Aye. The hint is not in Hightower staying behind after Rhaegar left but in staying after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead and Viserys was supposedly the next in the line of succession.

[Consigliere]

Pulling the tiger by the tail, are we? :P

As you may have noticed, there has arisen bold opposition to the brainwashing of R+L, claiming Jon=Aegon, but for some reason, avoids this very thread, perhaps for fear of getting SSMed by Aegon's age at the time of the Sack, so, no fun around here these days, it seems...

:lol:

I recall several members opposing R+L on a thread on peoples opinions of valid theories. Shortly after two R+L=/=J threads popped up where the OP focused on educating us on the difference between primary and secondary canon. I think I know who you are referring to and that person has repeatedly chosen to ignore SSM's as well as logic - he does not have a leg to stand on and that is why I think he refuses to bring the debate to this thread.

To my question: It is generally accepted that Aegon was born in 282AL. In the WoIaF app it is stated that Aegon is born in the year before Robert's Rebellion. The rebellion started in 282AL so that presumably places Aegon's year of birth at 281AL. Can we categorically place Aegon's birth at 282AL or is there a case to be made for him being born in 281AL?

[complexphoenix]

Well, when Gerold left, the King had four of the seven Kingsguard securing him. That is more than adequate protection and historically, it is not unusual for not every member to be present protecting the King directly. You're right that Rhaegar likely left an order for Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell to protect Lyanna. We don't know at what speed news reaches the Tower of Joy, but what we do know is that by the time Eddard reaches the Tower of Joy, they are all aware of the events have transpired. The issue here is that if Viserys is first-in-line, and therefore the King, at least one member of the Kingsguard ought to have gone to him. The first duty of the Kingsguard is to protect the King. It's Gerold Hightower himself that points out that the men guarding Viserys aren't members of the Kingsguard, which is a huge narrative hint. Obeying Rhaegar's orders are important, but how can they take precedent over protecting the King, which is the very reason why their order exists? It can't, which means that the reason they haven't sent one of their number to watch over Viserys is that Viserys isn't the king.

Granted, I don't take that as proof, but I do think it is a very strong indication of that Jon is not a bastard, but trueborn.

This seems like some really weak tea to me. How do you know that the TOJ three knew anything that had transpired since Rhaegar left them? The TOJ sounded pretty isolated to me. Also, I don't recall anyone but Jaime ever analyzing the KG oath in enough detail to decide which parts take precedence over which. If part of Rhaegar's order included the words "no matter what" then no, they wouldn't have gone to Viserys, they would have obeyed Rhaegar's final order and stayed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am NOT buying this notion that Gerold Hightower's presence means Jon is legitimate. Gerold Hightower was sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar, and then we don't see him again until Ned arrives at the TOJ. If Ser Gerold was the huge stickler for guarding the King that people say he is, why did he stay at the TOJ with Arthur and Oswell? Lyanna's child was at best third in line for the throne at that point, after Rhaegar and Aegon. Shouldn't Gerold have returned to KL with Rhaegar and ended up either at the Trident or in KL when the Sack occurred?

I think it is far more likely that Rhaegar ordered Gerold to stay at the TOJ and Gerold was honor-bound to obey because in the absence of the King, KG obey the next guy in line. Rhaegar's orders to the three went something along the lines of "guard her with your lives and don't let anyone touch her" - orders which, taken literally, forbade them to surrender her to anyone, even her brother, even after all the Targs had been killed or fled. It was the "obey" part of the oath they were referring to, not the "protect the king" part.

You're not mentioning the pretty critical part where Jaime, Lewyn, Darry and Barristan are still in King's Landing protecting Aerys up until the Trident and Sack. There wasn't a huge crisis until the Trident, and the Sack was only a couple of weeks after that. It's quite likely that the guys at the Tower had no idea what had happened until after it had already occurred. You can't blame them for not acting in a certain way when they didn't have the information necessary to act. As far as they knew, Aerys was protected. By the time they found out that he wasn't, he was dead and it was too late to do anything.

The reason Gerold is the linchpin isn't because of Aerys; it's because of Viserys. If Gerold thought Viserys was the king at that point (and if Jon's a bastard, Viserys is the king), he would have gone to Viserys or sent Arthur or Whent to him, even if Rhaegar had given him orders to stay. Dead Rhaegar's orders do not trump living Viserys's safety ... if Viserys is the king.

[WhiteOwl18]

This seems like some really weak tea to me. How do you know that the TOJ three knew anything that had transpired since Rhaegar left them? The TOJ sounded pretty isolated to me. Also, I don't recall anyone but Jaime ever analyzing the KG oath in enough detail to decide which parts take precedence over which. If part of Rhaegar's order included the words "no matter what" then no, they wouldn't have gone to Viserys, they would have obeyed Rhaegar's final order and stayed.

Yes, they would have. Protecting the king is more important than any order given by the dead crown prince. If Viserys was king, they should have (and would have) gone to him.