R+L = J v 64

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

mmm yes and no. With Viserys on the run they could have seen it as a somewhat of a lost cause. Plus Rhaegar being the heir apparent at the time, could have instructed them to stay no matter what. And even if Jon was bastard born, he still technically would come before Viserys because of the laws of inheritance, etc. Not even mentioning that, but also that these men were Rhaegars friends as well as his guards, I think they would carry out his last wish bastard or not. It is not grounds to say Jon HAS TO be legit.

The orders are to protect the king, not to protect the king unless it's a pain in the ass to get to him. Rhaegar being the heir apparent at the time doesn't mean dick when Rhaegar is dead and Viserys is (supposedly) now the king and lacks protection.

There is absolutely nothing to the idea that Jon would still be ahead of Viserys if he was a bastard. That's flat-out not correct. A bastard has no inheritance rights; if Jon's a bastard, Viserys is the king.

Dayne and Whent were Rhaegar's friends. Hightower, not so much. And it's Hightower's presence that should be the big clue that something's going on here. Hightower is presented as 100% by the book, even in extreme cases. There is no friggin' way he hangs around the Tower of Joy protecting Rhaegar's bastard if Viserys is the real king and unprotected.

[TheWizard]

And it's Hightower's presence that should be the big clue that something's going on here. Hightower is presented as 100% by the book, even in extreme cases. There is no friggin' way he hangs around the Tower of Joy protecting Rhaegar's bastard if Viserys is the real king and unprotected.

I agree and good point .At some time in Jamies POV he talks about him and Hightower discussing Aerys madness. I believe it was either after Aerys raping his wife or when he killed the Starks. Hightower basically said its none of our business. There is no way that same guy would then leave his true King in exile. Hell he was already in Dorne. He would of went south and hooked up with the Martells. I think a lot of people forget that at the tower of joy, the kingsguard are trying to win. They wanted to leave with their king not go out on their shields honoring Rheagars last wish. Ned just got there first.

[NeponyatnoKto]

My Theory: ?+L=J Rhaegar Targaryen, Aerys Targaryen

Lyanna Stark was killed by Ashara Dayne

Ashara Dayne stabbed Lyanna Stark and ran away

Ned went to Starfall that Dayne silent about newborn baby.

Ned silent about the murder of Lyanna

This explains the Ashara Dayne name ban in Winterfell and Ned as Lord of Starfall

[Jon Icefyre]

My Theory: ?+L=J Rhaegar Targaryen, Aerys Targaryen

Lyanna Stark was killed by Ashara Dayne

Ashara Dayne stabbed Lyanna Stark and ran away

Ned went to Starfall that Dayne silent about newborn baby.

Ned silent about the murder of Lyanna

This explains the Ashara Dayne name ban in Winterfell and Ned as Lord of Starfall

Admirable post, but it really puts the 'crack' in crackpot theory there are several things that don't make sense at all with anything in that theory. But again hats off for going there, you at least get an A creativity lol. :P Although, in the back of my mind I'm wondering if you're even being serious or not with this post....... :unsure:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

My Theory: ?+L=J Rhaegar Targaryen, Aerys Targaryen

Lyanna Stark was killed by Ashara Dayne

Ashara Dayne stabbed Lyanna Stark and ran away

Ned went to Starfall that Dayne silent about newborn baby.

Ned silent about the murder of Lyanna

This explains the Ashara Dayne name ban in Winterfell and Ned as Lord of Starfall

Oh boy! Ashara killed Rhaegar, Aerys and Lyanna? Who needs shadowbabies when we have Shashara?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

My Theory: ?+L=J Rhaegar Targaryen, Aerys Targaryen

Lyanna Stark was killed by Ashara Dayne

Ashara Dayne stabbed Lyanna Stark and ran away

Ned went to Starfall that Dayne silent about newborn baby.

Ned silent about the murder of Lyanna

This explains the Ashara Dayne name ban in Winterfell and Ned as Lord of Starfall

Hell no.

[Victarion10]

Why did Aemon The Dragonknight fight Cregan Stark?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Why did Aemon The Dragonknight fight Cregan Stark?

I assume it was a tourney.

eta- is it relevant to RLJ?

[Victarion10]

I assume it was a tourney.

eta- is it relevant to RLJ?

Sorry thought I was posting in Small questions

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Sorry thought I was posting in Small questions

That's okay! I was genuinely curious, but I suspected as much ;)

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Hey, I just thought of the Samwell/Eddard parallel, and was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on it.

Not sure what it is called, but the parallel how:

• Ned brought Jon home and claims Jon to be his own bastard, after Rhaegar/Targs were defeated and Lyanna dies giving birth
• Jon instructs Samwell to bring Gilly's (really Mance's) son home and claim him as his own bastard, after Mance/Wildlings were defeated and Dalla dies giving birth

Might be a Wylla/Gilly comparison in there too, not sure

I tried multiple searches but could not find anything, so sorry for asking about this, if someone can post a link to a discussion, then thank you.

Wow that's kinda an off-topic from this... but there's a lot of interesting parallelisms there.

Ned has a younger brother that took the black, Sam has a younger brother and he took the black.

Ned claims that Wylla is Jon's mother to Robert Baratheon. Wylla is Jon's wetnurse according to Edric Dayne, who also was nursed by Wylla.

Jon claims that Gilly is Mance son's mother to Stannis Baratheon. Gilly is the wetnurse to Mance's son and her own son.

Sam is knowingly going to claim the son of a King as his own bastard to his family. Ned knowingly had to claim the song of a would be king as his own bastard to his family. Both did it because they believed those babies would be killed.

Sam helped destroy Mance Rayder's army by sending out the ravens, Stannis Baratheon believes he killed Mance Rayder. Ned helped destroy Rhaegaer's armies in the battle of the Trident where Robert Baratheon did kill Rhaegar.

Sam acquired his bastard in the North and has to go down south to take him to his family. Ned acquired his bastard in the south and had to go North to take him home.

Snow and Flowers, bastards of the North and South. The first flower to bloom in the North is the Blue Winter Rose.

Ned had to travel by boat to get back to Winterfell to "call his banners" where he supposedly gave a fisherman's daughter a bastard, breaking his vows to his wife. Sam had to travel by boat where he had sex with Gilly breaking his vows to the Night's Watch.

[FrozenFire3]

Wow that's kinda an off-topic from this... but there's a lot of interesting parallelisms there.

Ned has a younger brother that took the black, Sam has a younger brother and he took the black.

Ned claims that Wylla is Jon's mother to Robert Baratheon. Wylla is Jon's wetnurse according to Edric Dayne, who also was nursed by Wylla.

Jon claims that Gilly is Mance son's mother to Stannis Baratheon. Gilly is the wetnurse to Mance's son and her own son.

Sam is knowingly going to claim the son of a King as his own bastard to his family. Ned knowingly had to claim the song of a would be king as his own bastard to his family. Both did it because they believed those babies would be killed.

Sam helped destroy Mance Rayder's army by sending out the ravens, Stannis Baratheon believes he killed Mance Rayder. Ned helped destroy Rhaegaer's armies in the battle of the Trident where Robert Baratheon did kill Rhaegar.

Sam acquired his bastard in the North and has to go down south to take him to his family. Ned acquired his bastard in the south and had to go North to take him home.

Snow and Flowers, bastards of the North and South. The first flower to bloom in the North is the Blue Winter Rose.

Ned had to travel by boat to get back to Winterfell to "call his banners" where he supposedly gave a fisherman's daughter a bastard, breaking his vows to his wife. Sam had to travel by boat where he had sex with Gilly breaking his vows to the Night's Watch.

Perfectly outlined.

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

This just popped up in my head:

For the kingsguard to stay and guard Lyanna and the baby she should have already given birth.

For the 3 guards to stay with her without knowing if shes carrying a boy or a girl is a longshot since Viserys at that oint is a sure shot at beeing the next Targ monarch.

If Lyanna gave birth to a girl then what? Targ girls don´t inherit the throne ...

So logical conclusion is that Jon was already born when the battle began.

[Consigliere]

This just popped up in my head:

For the kingsguard to stay and guard Lyanna and the baby she should have already given birth.

For the 3 guards to stay with her without knowing if shes carrying a boy or a girl is a longshot since Viserys at that oint is a sure shot at beeing the next Targ monarch.

If Lyanna gave birth to a girl then what? Targ girls don´t inherit the throne ...

So logical conclusion is that Jon was already born when the battle began.

Yes he was. Probably born around the time of the Sack of KL.

[J. Stargaryen]

ACoK, Daenerys IV (HotU):

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness....

ADwD, Jon VII:

“The sun had broken through near midday, after seven days of dark skies and snow flurries. Some of the drifts were higher than a man, but the stewards had been shoveling all day and the paths were as clean as they were like to get. Reflections glimmered off the Wall, every crack and crevice glittering pale blue.”

We know from the next Dany chapter in ACoK that the blue flower was in fact a blue rose – which are occasionally described as pale.

ACoK, Daenyers V:

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood... what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?”

AGoT, Eddard various:

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

[FrozenFire3]

ACoK, Daenerys IV (HotU):

ADwD, Jon VII:

We know from the next Dany chapter in ACoK that the blue flower was in fact a blue rose – which are occasionally described as pale.

ACoK, Daenyers V:

AGoT, Eddard various:

Quite spelled out, isn't it?

Talking of blue 'flowers', walls of ice and... wicked puns:

The sun had returned to the sky after a fortnight's absence, and to the south the Wall rose blue-white and glittering.

[corbon]

This just popped up in my head:

For the kingsguard to stay and guard Lyanna and the baby she should have already given birth.

For the 3 guards to stay with her without knowing if shes carrying a boy or a girl is a longshot since Viserys at that oint is a sure shot at beeing the next Targ monarch.

Nope. The way it works in these sorts of cases, at least in real european history, which is the closest we have to base on, is that there is an interrugnum of sorts, with no King, until the baby is born and either becomes King if a boy, or Viserys would become King if a girl. This has actually happened in both Spain and France before.

Hence, the KG aren't actually required to leave until the birth.

Not to mention, they are't required to leave even if it was a girl until they get word about what happened at the Trident and Sack. And while it seems rather clear they did know by the time Ned got there, we don't know how long they've had that information. We do know, of course, that they couldn't have had that information before it actually happened, so therefore there is no requirement for Jon to be born before the Sack.

If Lyanna gave birth to a girl then what? Targ girls don´t inherit the throne ...

Viserys becomes King, though the KG won't know that until they get word of the Trident and Sack.

So logical conclusion is that Jon was already born when the battle began.

Sorry, afraid not.

[J. Stargaryen]

Quite spelled out, isn't it?

Talking of blue 'flowers', walls of ice and... wicked puns:

That's interesting because if you add white to blue you're going to end up with a paler blue. :cool4:

This isn't the only instance of potential wordplay where "rose" means both the flower and the past tense of rise. I remember Alia mentioning such an example a while back with Winterfell and winter rose.

[The guy from the Vale]

Nope. The way it works in these sorts of cases, at least in real european history, which is the closest we have to base on, is that there is an interrugnum of sorts, with no King, until the baby is born and either becomes King if a boy, or Viserys would become King if a girl. This has actually happened in both Spain and France before.

Hence, the KG aren't actually required to leave until the birth.

Not to mention, they are't required to leave even if it was a girl until they get word about what happened at the Trident and Sack. And while it seems rather clear they did know by the time Ned got there, we don't know how long they've had that information. We do know, of course, that they couldn't have had that information before it actually happened, so therefore there is no requirement for Jon to be born before the Sack.

Viserys becomes King, though the KG won't know that until they get word of the Trident and Sack.

Sorry, afraid not.

Actually, it is the right conclusion, even if based on false premises. Because for Lyanna to die of puerperal fever (or do you think that's not true either?), she must have given birth one to two weeks before Ned turned up.

[tf13]

One thing that I just can't seem to shake is Jon being armored "in black ice", which makes me immediately think of Rhaegar's black plate.