Jamie vs Dany: Is it too obvious?

[Tyrion1991]

I really feel like this is only going to go one way. Martin keeps having Dany going on and on about how her father was murdered. Even when focusing on other things like Rhaegars kids being killed or more neutral like her family in general or her mother would get a far more neutral response from readers. We also have the whole thing with Barristan wanting to tell her "the truth". So even though it wasn't just her father who was killed and her motivation would still be the same if she just thought in terms of her family; Martin has made her fathers murder the focal point of Danys desire for vengeance. To put it mildly, this a negative character trait which is stressed and is presented in wholly one sided terms. Her attitude totally unreasonable and divorced from reality. There is almost nothing to offset this, we have a few scant forgetful lines in AGOT about how Dany had a bad childhood because of her exile which is ridiculously insignificant compared to the battery of text about how evil Aerys was. So most readers would even say Dany has no reason to be hurting in general over her being orphaned.

We then have Jamie, who has a several book redemption arc in which we have a lot of laughs, lose a hand, kill a Bear (ouu foreshadowing, he'll kill Jorah. :D) and hear his story of how he bravely saved Kings Landing from the Mad King all the while playing the worlds smallest violin because people don't like him for it. Clearly Jamie is the hero and he is thus rightly a fan favorite, especially since he seems to have abandoned Cersei and has a nice thing going with Brienne. For good measure hes even shown as being as loyal as he could to the Targs, admiring Rhaegar and harboring guilt over betraying them with the mosaic scene.

So any conflict between these 2 characters has obviously been set up for a long time and everything has been saying it is only going to go one way. Jamie will be the victim of Danys prejudice, ignorance and unreasonableness. Pretty much as ungrey a situation as can be imaginable. Dany is the villain here.

Basically I wanted to ask if this seems a little too obvious? The set up has went on for a very long time and given that Martin likes to subvert expectations is this just too likely to follow the tracks it seems to be set on? Is there any other way this could go?

[The Mother of The Others]

And the redemption arc is full of doing stuff that works. So if Dany is scouring the countryside for him and threatening the land with death, Jaime will likely ride right up to her camp and turn himself in to limit the bloodshed that's done on behalf of finding him. (Also, he'd want to turn himself in instead of having one of his own countrymen bonk him on the head to get the bounty for turning him in). This surrender would also set up the awesomest trial chapter ever when Tyrion is there (sort of caught in the middle) to adjudicate the accusations flying back and forth. The truth could shake out of this confrontation in a truly interesting fashion. This assumes Stoneheart is far sighted enough to leave Jaime in play.

[LordStoneheart]

So much wrong with this topic but I'll just talk about this one thing:

Clearly Jamie is the hero

Heroes don't attempt to murder children. Jaime is a fan-favorite to some and despised by others... Just like another "hero" Daenerys. Loved, hated.

There is no hero of this story, and Jaime will be dead by time Dany gets to Westeros.

[Tyrion1991]

There are degrees of the love and hatred for certain characters. Victarion is not as beloved as Arya for instance.

Dany is much more hated than Jamie. You see a handful of things against Jamie because he is on a redemptive arc and he is a likable character. Whilst Danys character seems increasingly meant to rub readers the wrong way; especially in ADWD.

Plus, his attempt on Brans life gets brushed under the carpet and forgotten about by ASOS as we have several books of the worlds smallest violin and the author really emphasizing the Aerys thing which paints him in a hugely positive light. Plus, he is a funny and adorable character who talks shit to Cersei. Compare that to Dany where her sufferings as a result of her exile are brushed to one side very early on and the focus is on her being ignorant for not accepting that her father is mad when its common knowledge. This is a very simple set up with Dany as the villain and Jamie as the victim. A setup which has been going on since the start of ASOS (arguably before) and possibly before when we get his POV and Arstans appearance.

He is probably not going to die for this reason. Obviously GRRM wants Dany to either forgive the man who murdered her father or kill him even though hes so so nice. Its strange that Martin manages to make Dany not being willing to forgive the men who did this and orphaned her such an unreasonable and bigoted position; but he does so very effectively. I almost felt like Martin thought this would be an uphill battle to make you take Jamies side as it is a really belabored point. It might be that GRRM thinks Dany is more liked than she actually is and has to work to counter this to make the whole story grey (BTW TV show is completely different on Dany).

[Gneisenau]

I always thought it would be Jaime vs Bran, the books start with Jaime and Bran, and thus it would be poetic with it ended with Jaime vs Bran.

[Jon of the Dead]

I always thought it would be Jaime vs Bran, the books start with Jaime and Bran, and thus it would be poetic with it ended with Jaime vs Bran.

:agree:

I don't think we'll ever get a Dany vs Jaime showdown, especially because we rarely get these type of moments in this series: characters are often killed by some other, unexpected enemy, not the most obvious one (Tyrion killing Tywin being one of the exceptions)

But if Dany vs Jaime were to happen, my bet is on Jaime surviving because Dany has a treason for love waiting for her, and it could very well by Tyrion's, if he manages to forgive Jaime.

[Tyrion1991]

:agree:

I don't think we'll ever get a Dany vs Jaime showdown, especially because we rarely get these type of moments in this series: characters are often killed by some other, unexpected enemy, not the most obvious one (Tyrion killing Tywin being one of the exceptions)

But if Dany vs Jaime were to happen, my bet is on Jaime surviving because Dany has a treason for love waiting for her, and it could very well by Tyrion's, if he manages to forgive Jaime.

Which is another reason why he will survive as it creates a clear conflict of interest between Tyrion and Daenerys where they should and in all likelihood will be close allies if not friends.

A showdown which subverts initial expectations would always be good especially since this would be a very dark thing for Daenerys to do and to direct her desire for vengeance on a popular character who wants redemption. What everyone expected was that Dany would get to fight evil Tywin. But I don't believe GRRM would pass up that opportunity since the Targ thing has been so prominent in Jamies arc; more so than any other POV arguably. So I can actually see this one breaking the rule and so Dany does actually get to meet her fathers killer.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Well, I will not go into the details... There is some good criticism already put forward by previous replies.

But about the conflict Dany x Jaime, I believe it's more likely that it will be Tyrion x Jaime. We know Tyrion thinks he hates Jaime now, and he will probably say so to Dany in order to befriend her. Maybe he will even keep his story about murdering Joffrey.

I guess it would be kind of weird if Dany asks Tyrion to kill Jaime, since Brienne is in that same position right now, but the conflict could be developed in other ways.

[Gneisenau]

Well, I will not go into the details... There is some good criticism already put forward by previous replies.

But about the conflict Dany x Jaime, I believe it's more likely that it will be Tyrion x Jaime. We know Tyrion thinks he hates Jaime now, and he will probably say so to Dany in order to befriend her. Maybe he will even keep his story about murdering Joffrey.

I guess it would be kind of weird if Dany asks Tyrion to kill Jaime, since Brienne is in that same position right now, but the conflict could be developed in other ways.

Does Tyrion actually hate Jaime ? I always interpreted his hatred as a "heat of the moment" kind of thing.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Does Tyrion actually hate Jaime ? I always interpreted his hatred as a "heat of the moment" kind of thing.

Well, that's a nice topic. I don't know if someone already gathered all the info we have. I would have to read his chapters again, but from what I remember, I got the feeling that he thinks he hates Jaime because of all the Tysha stuff, yes. Though I don't think he would actually murder Jaime if it came to that.

What I would really like to know, though, is how Jaime reacts to the info that Tyrion killed Joffrey and what he thinks about Tyrion now. I don't really remember, but I don't think the issue is ever adressed in his POVs.

[grand old duke of stark]

It's an intriguing possibility. Speculating along those lines, what if Jaime or even Brienne (if she's present) tells Dany exactly why he had to kill Aerys? Would she believe it? Would she care? What would she do? Would it unhinge her?

In the event, if she has already learned other unexpected facts about Robert's Rebellion and considered them plausible, might she relent towards Jaime? Gods know, almost anything is possible in GRRM's universe.

[sapphire_lion]

I think a Dany vs. Jaime confrontation could be very compelling. He could tell her a lot of things she does not want to hear. He could tell her about the night she was conceived. In any case, if she came after him, I think Tyrion and Brienne would come to his defense. I always thought that the betrayal for love that Dany would suffer would be Tyrion betraying her for Jaime.

Does Tyrion actually hate Jaime ? I always interpreted his hatred as a "heat of the moment" kind of thing.

Tyrion had a dream where he killed Jaime, but in the dream he (Tyrion) had two heads and one of them was crying. I interpreted that to mean that part of him would always love Jaime. I’m not so sure he could go through with killing his big brother in real life.

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

-ADWD

[ejhawman]

Completely not obvious to me. Even odds as to whether Jaime is still alive when Dany flies over from Essos, but I put no chance on her killing him. Either he dies with Cersei, or Tyrion kills him.

[MasterJack]

Nah they will end up togheter, she likes the overly confident type strong guy. Prophecies say Cercei will be overthrown by a more beautiful queen (Jaime will love Dany).

[sapphire_lion]

Either he dies with Cersei, or Tyrion kills him.

I don’t think he will die with Cersei, the Weirwood Stump dream pretty much ruled that out. And Tyrion wasn’t in that dream. I think Jaime will die, but I don’t think his death will be related to any Lannister. In the dream, he had to face his doom and go to his place. The Lannisters all left him. I think Jaime’s death will have something to do with the ghosts of his past and maybe wolves. Also, Brienne will be with him when he dies. Or at least that's what the dream suggested.

[Martini Sigil]

clearly Dany needs a history lesson before she hits Westeros, and I think Selmy was waiting for the right time when all hell broke loose. Whatever interactions she has in Westeros will be intruiging, as its been 5 books in the making... I don't think that she has very high opinions of anyone with the exception of the Martells.

who *wouldn't* she make dragon food?

[Castellan]

I think the scene Dany saw in the house of the undying of Aerys telling 'another man' 'let him be king over cooked meat...' Could be a inserted so that she believes Jaime re killing Aerys if she meets him.

[Fire Eater]

I think a Dany vs. Jaime confrontation could be very compelling. He could tell her a lot of things she does not want to hear. He could tell her about the night she was conceived. In any case, if she came after him, I think Tyrion and Brienne would come to his defense. I always thought that the betrayal for love that Dany would suffer would be Tyrion betraying her for Jaime.

I see that too. Jaime will likely tell the truth of her father's plans after he is captured in battle and brought to her. Tyrion will vouch for Jaime, recalling that pyromancers found hidden caches buried beneath all of KL from Aerys's reign when he was preparing for the BoBW.

I think the scene Dany saw in the house of the undying of Aerys telling 'another man' 'let him be king over cooked meat...' Could be a inserted so that she believes Jaime re killing Aerys if she meets him.

Dany will remember that as well.

Tyrion will later betray Dany by freeing Jaime, and helping him escape like Jaime did with Tyrion. That will likely be the last time they ever see each other, and have one last moment together as brothers.

If we follow the parallel closer, after Jaime frees Tyrion, Tyrion kills his whore Shae by strangling her with the Hand's chain, and I think after Tyrion frees Jaime he will strangle Cersei, who is called "the Kingslayer's whore."

[Nictarion]

1.So most readers would even say Dany has no reason to be hurting in general over her being orphaned.

2.We then have Jamie, who has a several book redemption arc in which we have a lot of laughs, lose a hand, kill a Bear (ouu foreshadowing, he'll kill Jorah. :D)

1.Sorry but this is a ridiculous statement.

2.Jaime didn't kill the bear, the northmen did.

[direwienerdog]

clearly Dany needs a history lesson before she hits Westeros, and I think Selmy was waiting for the right time when all hell broke loose. Whatever interactions she has in Westeros will be intruiging, as its been 5 books in the making... I don't think that she has very high opinions of anyone with the exception of the Martells.

who *wouldn't* she make dragon food?

Well actually she keeps cutting Barry off when he's ready to tell her Aerys was

A complete nut job.

I think Tyrion will be the one with the cold hard facts. Dany might not believe him either. But if enough people confirm the story, she may begin to believe.

As far as the Martells, it may matter more what they believe about Dany than what she thinks of them. After all Quentin died by Dragon Fire and that will be hard for them to accept. With Arrianne going to see Aegon it may be too late for Dany to make nice.