thegloriousedd Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 A lot of you say Sansa. Why? She goes through a horrible time without breaking down, but that's not necessarily the same thing as having iron will. I think Arya has a far stronger will than her sister. If she had been captured in KL as well she would not have accepted her fate the way Sansa did.Arya does have a strong will power but hers I think has more to do with a natural rebellious attitude. Sansa on the otherhand is more "fragile" with the way she's depicted so that's why I think it took more from her than it would arya in the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 A lot of you say Sansa. Why? She goes through a horrible time without breaking down, but that's not necessarily the same thing as having iron will. I think Arya has a far stronger will than her sister. If she had been captured in KL as well she would not have accepted her fate the way Sansa did. Sometimes doing nothing takes a lot more courage than fighting. Accepting that you are helpless and simply taking the pain without hitting back takes a lot of courage-and Sansa does it all with a smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Pope Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Arya does have a strong will power but hers I think has more to do with a natural rebellious attitude. Sansa on the otherhand is more "fragile" with the way she's depicted so that's why I think it took more from her than it would arya in the same situation. Fragile can be defined as the opposite of strong. You're right about Arya, the most common way to develop mental strength is to face resistance. Sansa doesn't have the same strength of character because up until her capture she more or less had things her way without struggle. Sometimes doing nothing takes a lot more courage than fighting. Accepting that you are helpless and simply taking the pain without hitting back takes a lot of courage-and Sansa does it all with a smile. Yes, but hers wasn't one of those situations. That being said, fighting would not have been the smart thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon 'Ghost' Targaryn Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Ummm, I dnt know. Maybe having your father decapitaed 3 feet from you and not completely going into a blackhole for the rest of yoir life, for starters. Then being betrothed to a raging lunatic, whom beats, degrades, threatens to serve you your brothers head on a plate, etc, etc, etc..... And still getting up in the morning a putting on a strong face, keeping her shit together, showing her courtesies to people whom she'd like to slit their throat. Being forced to marry a dwarf who's family is killing all of your family, and still managing to be the lady she was raised to be! I dont know about you but i'd of gave up a long time ago. Not to mention the shit LF is putting her through. Now I think you'll see all of this work in her favor. I believe she is beginning to become adept at the GoT's, while stiil being the pretty little bird everyone thinks she is. As for Arya, I believe she lacks willpower and its made very clear that she has the wolf blood in her. At THoBW they want her to throw away her former self and be no one. Well its pretty obvious she is having hard time doing that. Her she-wolf keeps coming back, she CANT throw it away. (A little foreshadowing for you.) I think with arya people a mistaking preserverance for willpower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Pope Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I'm not saying Sansa is weak. Maybe she's average or a bit above but extraordinary, even the strongest of all the characters? Certainly not. Ummm, I dnt know. Maybe having your father decapitaed 3 feet from you and not completely going into a blackhole for the rest of yoir life, for starters. Then being betrothed to a raging lunatic, whom beats, degrades, threatens to serve you your brothers head on a plate, etc, etc, etc..... And still getting up in the morning a putting on a strong face, keeping her shit together, showing her courtesies to people whom she'd like to slit their throat. Being forced to marry a dwarf who's family is killing all of your family, and still managing to be the lady she was raised to be! I dont know about you but i'd of gave up a long time ago. Not to mention the shit LF is putting her through. Now I think you'll see all of this work in her favor. I believe she is beginning to become adept at the GoT's, while stiil being the pretty little bird everyone thinks she is. As for Arya, I believe she lacks willpower and its made very clear that she has the wolf blood in her. At THoBW they want her to throw away her former self and be no one. Well its pretty obvious she is having hard time doing that. Her she-wolf keeps coming back, she CANT throw it away. (A little foreshadowing for you.) I think with arya people a mistaking preserverance for willpower. Have you forgotten what Arya went through? Flea Bottom, the execution, witnessing the mountain's handywork closeup, the march to harrenhall and witnessing the RW massacre just to take the worst examples. Sansa never came close to any of that shit and that's a good thing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon 'Ghost' Targaryn Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 And arya changed her identity everytime. Look I'm not saying arya is not tough and a great character. Willpower is sticking to your guns, being who you where taught to be, and not conforming to the people around you. Now mr. Pope, who fits that better....arya or sansa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Pope Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 And arya changed her identity everytime. Look I'm not saying arya is not tough and a great character. Willpower is sticking to your guns, being who you where taught to be, and not conforming to the people around you. Now mr. Pope, who fits that better....arya or sansa? That's not the definition of willpower. Willpower is how hard you're prepared to work towards your goals. Arya's was to get back North to her home and family which her changes helped. She tried to through all her hardships until she reached Braavos where she joined a new family because she realized her old one and her home was no more. Sansa's goal? To survive each day without letting grief and fear overcome her, she didn't always succeed. I still say Arya for Sansa would not have made it far on her path before utterly losing hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I don't see why it has to be an either/or-both Stark girls have a tremendous willpower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrarch42 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Sometimes doing nothing takes a lot more courage than fighting. Accepting that you are helpless and simply taking the pain without hitting back takes a lot of courage-and Sansa does it all with a smile. There's nothing willpower-esque about being a passive victim. Sansa in many ways isn't a passive victim though, she puts on a brave front and tells everyone lies to avoid being beaten or killed. She's only smiling because she knows continuing to smile will prevent Joffrey from going berserk and mounting her head on a spike.I fail to see anything courageous about "simply taking the pain without hitting back". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I'm not saying Sansa is weak. Maybe she's average or a bit above but extraordinary, even the strongest of all the characters? Certainly not. Have you forgotten what Arya went through? Flea Bottom, the execution, witnessing the mountain's handywork closeup, the march to harrenhall and witnessing the RW massacre just to take the worst examples. Sansa never came close to any of that shit and that's a good thing too. Sansa did suffer a different kind of pain - Or have you forgotten her constant spanking, the threats of rape, the forced marriage and the almost consummation? And all that when she couldn't even express herself, because she was expected to smile and act happy. Also, they turned her into her enemy - They made her a Lannister. As much as Arya suffered from the RW, Sansa did as well, if not the same, and she's almost thrown from the Eyrie by her aunt. Sansa did what she could do with her own personality, like Arya did with hers. You can't expect Sansa to fight like Arya, because she has a different strength than her. That's not the definition of willpower. Willpower is how hard you're prepared to work towards your goals. Arya's was to get back North to her home and family which her changes helped. She tried to through all her hardships until she reached Braavos where she joined a new family because she realized her old one and her home was no more. Sansa's goal? To survive each day without letting grief and fear overcome her, she didn't always succeed. I still say Arya for Sansa would not have made it far on her path before utterly losing hope. Arya in Sansa's position would have gotten herself killed, and the same can be said for Sansa in Arya's. They have equal willpower. Arya escaped, so of course her path to return home was more active. If you don't recall, Sansa also tries to return to the North, via Dontos. She just doesn't try to impulsively escape the Red Keep because well, she'd get herself more beaten up, if not killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 There's nothing willpower-esque about being a passive victim. Sansa in many ways isn't a passive victim though, she puts on a brave front and tells everyone lies to avoid being beaten or killed. She's only smiling because she knows continuing to smile will prevent Joffrey from going berserk and mounting her head on a spike.I fail to see anything courageous about "simply taking the pain without hitting back". What would you call Gandhi's non-violent protests then? Or the whole concept of turning the other cheek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Dead Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I have to say Brienne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagon Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Loras willing himself to survive after being doused with boiling oil and pelted with arrows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrarch42 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 What would you call Gandhi's non-violent protests then? Or the whole concept of turning the other cheek? I'm not familiar with Gandhi's protests, so I can't comment. If he was a complacent victim then I think he's an idiot. The fact that he was "protesting" something indicated, at least impressionistically, that he wasn't simply smiling whilst being abused. The "turn the other cheek" paradigm is a naive and asanine idea that encourages people to be happy and cooperative victims. It's a nice sentiment but typically a bad idea. I hope you wouldn't encourage battered spouses to "turn the other cheek" whilst their partner verbally or physically abuses them.Also, as I said, I don't think Sansa is without willpower (or courage for that matter), simply that being a complacent victim does not represent either. Sansa has a particular brand of willpoer and courage, as others have pointed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modbelle Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Aemon- he stayed on the Wall during/after he found out about what happened to his house. He then didn't attempt to murder a member of the Lannister household, i.e. Tyrion, when he came to visit the Night's Watch. Aemon even went so far as to council Jon to send a raven to Kingslanding asking for men and declaring that the Night's Watch didn't belong to Stannis, again to the ruling Lannister family. Aemon has the willpower to stay the course and do what needs to be done regardless to personal feelings. No one will ever have as much willpower as Aemon, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand old duke of stark Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Ned must have had superhuman willpower to do what he did for Jon. That "Promise me" haunted him, but he promised and as far as we know never told a soul. And to think what effect it had on his marriage--that's willpower with sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I hate to say this Little finger, Comes from a minor house and is reaching for greatmess, his scheming and plotting is legendary. 2 Varys close second: This former mummers/slave/street urchin has a spy network that kills and steals w/o remorse. 3. Brienne far third: It would be easy for her to marry a man and just lay down, however she has to be herself even bucking the norms of her society. 4. Bran: who could get pushed from a tower and travel half a continent. (nough said) 5. Davos: speaks his mind even though, his title is not backed by any real thorough lineage or money. " I name you liar" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Sandor. I'd say that it takes a lot of willpower to stay true to a single cause for an entire life. I was reading the thread and could not believe no-one would bring up the Hound. Sandor was the first name that came to my mind when I read the topic. Just think, he must have immense willpower and mental stamina. He's refrained from killing his f-ed up brother all this time, even at the Hand's Tourney he did not try to harm him even if nobody would really blame him if he had. Sansa was the first person he told about what really happened to his face. Plus, more importantly, this dude has stood by and watched Joffrey's crazy act for years and never once bitch-slapped his royal face or drop-kicked his scrawny ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Lannister Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 The great other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marwi Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 IMHO Sansa has not been "strong", she has totally freaked out and surrendered to her little bird task. She was constantly living under pressure and threat of punishment that denied her to weep and express her true feelings. Would her have been left alone - with no hope and no threat - she would have felt free to collapse like Jeyne Poole did. Instead she didn't: initially for hope, afterwards for fear. What it is important is that she was trapped in a situation of long-lasting pain which - like for Theon - does not help people develop strength but rather to run away within themselves seeking refuge and bending to the will of the others.. completely. I shall think more on whom really demonstrated a strong will, but I can say on my two foots that Sansa didn't and Theon neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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