The Unknown Targaryens

[The Dragon King]

Quite the observation there. I guess my point is that the Targs are given way too much special attention for a House that only came to Westeros 300 years ago when there are 8000 year old Ruling families far more worthy of attention and respect.

Damn Targs...

Just because the Targs are freakin awesome doesn't mean that the Starks aren't. For the record I'd be all for some tales of the old Starks, the cold and mean SOBs who ruthlessly took control of the North, practised blood magic with the weirwoods, etc, maybe a few books about the Age of Heroes and old Valyria.

[WakeTheDragon]

The cousins are everywhere. Quentyn for example. The targ daughters were married to other highborn families. Stannis has targ blood. Lots of characters do.

[TGR]

Why do the unknown Targaryens warrant discussion more than the gazillion unknown Starks?

My 2 cents: kinda of GRRM "fault"...

I am pretty new to the saga (compared to so many members of this forum), read the books within the last 3 years but I am also really curious about the Targs (even more about the Blackfyres).

The reason, I believe, is all this "aura" that is given to the House. The gold/silver/platinum hair, the many shades of violet eyes, connection to the dragons, the thing about last members of their people, the valyrians (Velaryon, Celtigar fit that too, but they were not kings), the idea of "they came, they conquered, they ruled, they are gone", all of that, you know? They are "special" among the rest of the Houses.

Also (Dany haters will love this), the characters that are alive in the novel (from the first book and on) are not "bad ass" compared to the other members of the other 8 Great Houses. I mean, you can tell that Ned fits the Stark thing... "There is no doubt that he is descendent of Bran the Builder!" And you could go on and on with examples (maybe only the Arryns are as "bad" as the Targs). "Now, Dany and Viserys are the representation of Aegon The Conquerer? Really? That sucks!". And you dont think about that much, you kind assume those stereotypes.

People want other members that represent all the great things said about old Targs, cuz the current ones dont have that much (which is unfair to Dany given the whole situation, how she grown up etc).

If Dany was like Arya or if Rhaelle was still alive and had some sort of Cat or Olenna esque, I am pretty sure would be more threads caring about the future than the past of the Targaryen.

[TGR]

(...) I do get that people have a hard time accepting the Brightflame connection (again only circumstantial evidence that points that way), we'll have to wait and see of course.

One of the main (more meta) reasons why I believe that Varys and Serra are brother and sister and why they are both Brightflames. Is that it would be very interesting. It would add a layer of intrigue and drama on to the normal Faegon storyline (...)

(...)If Illyrio turns out to be a Blackfyre and V&S are Brightflames than their alliance would have been sealed through the marriage of Serra and Illyrio. That's a very Westerosi way to roll (+ I think it would also better explain Illyrio's familiarity with the GC and his past as a warrior and the fact that Faegon has a full Targ look, something that I'd find harder to accept if one of his parents is a non-Valyrian) (...)

I've been searching and reading in this forum a bunch of great topics with theories about Varys/Serra/Illyrio being part of the House Blackfyre but never found anything related to Aerion Brightflame. Any suggestion? Plus, the fact that he does not have the traditional valyrian looks is related with something about Bittersteel?

By the way, if all that theories about V/S/I end up being something like "they are descendents of the kids of Daemon Blackfyre AND Aegor Bittersteel AND Aerion Brightflame AND Daeron daughter" I wont be surprised. I mean, would be a lazy (meh) way to solve all the things but would be reasonable.

I can get that they sticking together like "we are all blood of valyria, away from home, lets keep our blood pure and find a way to go back home". Maybe this might explain the 3rd and 4th Blackfyre Rebellion ("we are not only descendent of Daemon Blackfyre but we are also blood of the rightfull heirs of your lineage" or something craz like that).

Would be weird but it's a way to get all the possibilities together into one thing, like "the other surviving Targaryen lineage".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Watched those 3 last week. Had the DVDs for ages, but never watched them.

Anyway, I don't think Varys is pro-Targ, as it was said he was feeding Aerys II's madness? And there's him turning him against his own promising crown prince son.

Barristans said that Aerys' descent into madness started with Varys. They all say Varys was feeding Aerys' paranoia. But was Aerys' paranoia completely made up by himself? Look at the Tourney of Harrenhal. Ser Oswell Whent went to visit his family, and upon his return to KL, Lord Whent announced the tourney. All the Great Lords in the realm were invited. Almost all of the great houses were there. Stark, Arryn, Martell, Tyrell, Targaryen, Baratheon. And Rhaegar went, accompanied by his KG and friends. Remember that this Oswell Whent is the same guy that also guarded the Tower of Joy, where Lyanna was found. Rhaegar apparently put a lot of trust in this man.

Aerys wasn't supposed to come along, but he did, and then the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Lyanna happened, and everyone's attention was drawn elsewhere. But Jon Connington once thinks to himself that Aerys was mad, and "even in the end" Rhaegar saw that plain enough. So Rhaegar had finally accepted in the end that his father was mad. He told Jaime in their last conversation that upon his return, he shall be making some changes. I can only imagine this will be remove Aerys completely off the throne, or take over regency and have Aerys declared insane.

The Tourney of Harrenhal had been the perfect set up for Rhaegar to gather all the great lords (or as many as he could at once) and find out who of them were loyal to Aerys, and who of them were loyal to Rhaegar. But that plan failed before it had even begun, since Aerys accompanied Rhaegar to Harrenhal.

If Varys' birds had overheard something, of course Varys wouldn't point to Rhaegar immediately. He was still Aerys' son, it could cost Varys his head. But he could start by making sure Aerys' attention was focused on all of those who were conspiring with Rhaegar. Not Rhaegar's closest friends, that would draw the Prince's anger. But by people further removed from him.

I'm not saying this is exactly the way it went down, but fact remains that Ser Oswell's visit and the time of announcing the tourney is very suspicious.

I've been searching and reading in this forum a bunch of great topics with theories about Varys/Serra/Illyrio being part of the House Blackfyre but never found anything related to Aerion Brightflame. Any suggestion? Plus, the fact that he does not have the traditional valyrian looks is related with something about Bittersteel?

Aerion had the typical Valyrian looks. Or were you talking about someone else?

[Makes No Sansa]

It would be even more strange if there weren't many Targaryens. So I guess he created all those characters who seem to have no background, not even a name, because it's normal that a Royal Family like the Targaryens has plenty of members, but there's no need to know every detail about every single one of them. They're just there to make it normal, to fill gaps, get over it, people.

PS: However, I don't think George throws out names that will have 0 relevance in the story, some of them, such as Aerion's famous feeble-witted daughter might have a bigger role than it's actually expected from them.

[TGR]

(...)Aerion had the typical Valyrian looks. Or were you talking about someone else?

Yeah yeah, there is no doubt that Aerion had Targ traits. I am sorry, my post should have Illyrio on it: "the fact that ILLYRIO does not have the traditional valyrian looks is related with something about Bittersteel?"

I admit that I am playing dumb assuming that Aerion Brightflame + Lysene woman = valyrian looking child (Its not because its from Lys that has valyrian traits) but since I never found a thread about Bittersteel descendants, I though someone could link me something...

Or it was mentioned that Bittersteel was infertile / an eunuch and I never saw that? :shocked:

[Veltigar]

Yeah yeah, there is no doubt that Aerion had Targ traits. I am sorry, my post should have Illyrio on it: "the fact that ILLYRIO does not have the traditional valyrian looks is related with something about Bittersteel?"

I admit that I am playing dumb assuming that Aerion Brightflame + Lysene woman = valyrian looking child (Its not because its from Lys that has valyrian traits) but since I never found a thread about Bittersteel descendants, I though someone could link me something...

Or it was mentioned that Bittersteel was infertile / an eunuch and I never saw that? :shocked:

I think the chance of a Bittersteel decendant is almost 0,00% simply because he's never ever mentioned as having kids. We know that there are still BF decendants (through the female line) left thanks to Illyrio. And we know that there could very well be Brightflame decendants since we know Aerion had a son thanks to Jon (chapter 6 in ACOK IIRC).

[Ludd]

I think the feeble witted daughter and Aerion's descendents will be important.

I rather think that Lollys is the grandaughter of the feeble witted daughter - the family has faintly Targ names and where better to put a feeble witted daughter than with a minor local noble house such as the Stokeworths. Lollys has inherited the feeble wits.

Now as for the evil Aerion - there are lots of possibilities for his descendents - Varys and Serra, DARKSTAR ??, A STARK grandma could be Aerion's daughter

[Veltigar]

I think the feeble witted daughter and Aerion's descendents will be important.

I rather think that Lollys is the grandaughter of the feeble witted daughter - the family has faintly Targ names and where better to put a feeble witted daughter than with a minor local noble house such as the Stokeworths. Lollys has inherited the feeble wits.

Now as for the evil Aerion - there are lots of possibilities for his descendents - Varys and Serra, DARKSTAR ??, A STARK grandma could be Aerion's daughter

I think the chances for a daughter by Aerion are quite small. Jon especially talked of an infant son. I don't think that Martin would pull a daughter from his hat if he mentioned a boy earlier on. All Brightflame decendants (imo Serra and Varys) are decendants (children or grandchildren) of this infant son.

[Darth Visenya]

I made clear and well reasoned points as to why Angelus is a Targaryen and don't think he should be omitted from this thread.

[Dead Wolf]

Rhaegel's twins

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

It would be even more strange if there weren't many Targaryens. So I guess he created all those characters who seem to have no background, not even a name, because it's normal that a Royal Family like the Targaryens has plenty of members, but there's no need to know every detail about every single one of them. They're just there to make it normal, to fill gaps, get over it, people.

PS: However, I don't think George throws out names that will have 0 relevance in the story, some of them, such as Aerion's famous feeble-witted daughter might have a bigger role than it's actually expected from them.

You think the name of a Prince is not important?....And an uncle of the great King Aerys II?

[-Ghost-]

PS: However, I don't think George throws out names that will have 0 relevance in the story, some of them, such as Aerion's famous feeble-witted daughter might have a bigger role than it's actually expected from them.

I think you're thinking of Aerion's brother Daeron that had the feeble witted daughter.