What should I read first?

[Fiddler's Green]

Hm, I think I'm the only person in the universe who thought TDTCB was the best book in the trilogy.

Well, I haven't gotten my hands on The Thousandful Thought yet, but I much preferred TDTCB to The Warrior Prophet.

As for the "love him or hate him" on Erikson, I suppose I'm right now one of the few in the middle. I was pretty firmly in the dislike camp a few months ago, but now progressing strongly through my re-read of Deadhouse Gates and like it much more.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

People either seem to think it's potentially one of the greatest epic-fantasy series ever, or just don't get it at all.

Either it's the greatest epic-fantasy series ever, or we don't get at all? That's not really much of an either/or. Not everyone wants their fantasy to be D&D on steroids. It's not a matter of "getting it," but of taste.

[Hark]

Either it's the greatest epic-fantasy series ever, or we don't get at all? That's not really much of an either/or. Not everyone wants their fantasy to be D&D on steroids. It's not a matter of "getting it," but of taste.

I don't think he meant it that way.

[Nyarlathotep]

Hm, finally got around to finish Memories of Ice today. Pretty solid piece of work. Could have been somewhat tighter, though. Found some of the subplots to be unnecessary, and didn't care much for how Erikson spent so much time focusing on a few of the less interesting minor characters.

Started on The Darkness That Comes Before earlier today. I'm currently some 50 pages into it, and am enjoying it immensely. Were I to judge from the little I've read thus far, I suspect I would have wound up picking TDTCB as a better 'first novel in a series' than GoTM.

[MeanMrMustard]

"D&D" is frequently mentioned in descriptions of Erikson.

[Kalbear]

TDTCB was my favorite as well. Possibly because it focused least on Kellhus and had the most political maneuverings.

Erikson is...well, I like readingi it because I like talking to my friends about it, but it's a chore.

[Decius]

"D&D" is frequently mentioned in descriptions of Erikson.

Wrongly so.

[Ten Minute Timer]

"D&D" is frequently mentioned in descriptions of Erikson.

Which is one of the reasons I said 'love or don't get it'. If all people can see from Erikson's writing is the 'uber-powerful' characters fighting it out, then they're completely missing the point. The complexities of the story and world he has created make anything D&D look like read with mother.

[Kalbear]

I don't see why that's wrongly so; the series is based on a long-running D&D campaign that Erikson was involved with. One telling example of why this is a correct view: there is almost no sex in it and almost no relationships beyond camaraderie. That specifically is very typical of RPGs; most people don't enjoy roleplaying sexual relationships with other gamers.

[Werthead]

I agree, there is a reasonable amount of sex in the books.

MBF was based on an AD&D campaign that Erikson and ICE started in around 1982. In 1986 or 1987 they transferred to GURPS, where all subsequent roleplaying took place.

The Prince of Nothing Trilogy also started life in roleplaying, with Bakker and his brother developing the setting (again, with AD&D) over several years.

[Doppelganger]

At the moment I'm going to say I like Erikson a whole lot more than I like Bakker (even though I love Bakker). I found The Warrior Prophet to drag on really slow in certain parts, and I found reading most of it to be a chore.

I just started Memories of Ice, I'm about 80 pages into it, and I'm already hooked once again. I dunno, there is just something about Erikson's writing and world that I really love.

I can read Erikson and feel I want more and more. Sort of like eating Milo with a spoon, hehehe.

Still, I can't wait to read TTT by Bakker.

[Ser Paladin]

Extrapolating this into the future, The Thousandfold Thought should therefore be better than anything by Erikson and slip just under ASoS as the greatest epic fantast instalment volume of the last decade. But we will see.

I do plan to read Erikson, and the D&D comparisons aren't a turnoff (I've read a few Drizzt popcorn books, I'm not ashamed). There is no hurry, though, as he is only halfway through the Malazan series.

But I'm closing in on finishing a re-read of the Prince of Nothing. Over the course of the trilogy, Bakker has edged out an author who shall remain nameless from my personal top-three genre authors. Between the depth and complexity of his concept, and the improvement of his characterization from the first book to the third (from decent to excellent), I give him the highest recommendation.

[Werthead]

The best plan of all, though, is to chuck both Bakker and Erikson for now, and read Scott Lynch's "The Lies of Locke Lamora" No wretched philosophising at all, not for a single page, and no one gets raped. Not once!

Erikson just slaughers people wholesale - 30,000, 40,000, what have you - without realizing - LIKE AN ANTHROPOLOGIST *SHOULD* that non-industrialized societies are much smaller scale societies, and it's just improbable that the numbers of nonindustrialized people would be able to gather in that size of a city, that you can just casually wipe out 30,000 people at any given time without severe disruptions to the economy, etc.

The book with the heaviest slaughter-tolls are Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice. The colossal slaughter in DHG has severe consequences for the economy of Seven Cities in The Bonehunters. Pretty much the entire subcontinent's farming for the year has been lost because tons of 7C citizens thought, "Wahey, a crazy jihad! Let's join in!"

SPOILER: The Bonehunters

This results in plague and famine that by the end of The Bonehunters has led to the deaths of vast numbers of citizens of the landmass. Erikson even points out the more severe impact of this on Quon Tali, since Seven Cities is the breadbasket of the Empire. By the end of The Bonehunters famine is actually threatening to erupt on Quon Tali itself because of the cessation of food supplies from the north.

The consequences of the similarly apocalyptic war in Memories of Ice have not been revealed, but we will find out in Book 8 (Toll the Hounds) how bad things are on Genabackis. However, organised governments survived in Genabackis, the Malazan Empire is actually working with the locals to restore food supplies and even in MoI itself we saw Darujhistan and the other cities outside the Pannion warzone supplying food into the disaster area, so the consequences there will not be as severe (it helps the supply situation - in a grim way - that most of the population of the Pannion Domin had starved or cannibalised themselves to death anyway).

I agree that The Lies of Locke Lamora is an incredibly effective and enjoyable read. I'm not entire sure it can be contrasted against Bakker and Erikson though. It's a very different kind of book.

Is Bakker depressing: certainly. The series is essentially the rise to power of a cynical manipulator who lies his way into power. But that's also the point. Bakker makes some cutting observations and points in the story which make it fascinating. In terms of raw storytelling ability Bakker is perhaps not in the same tier with Martin or Lynch, but in terms of him wanting to make several points about the nature of power, faith and belief, he does succeed in his aims. That opening scene is difficult to stomach (though mild compared to the final scene in The Warrior-Prophet when the Inchoroi interrogates the plainspeople), but Bakker's point is that this (the real world, that is) is a world where such depravaties take place and in medieval times, even more so. GRRM doesn't shrink from this either, it should be pointed out. Even if he is slightly less graphic than Bakker, who it should be pointed out is hardly describing everything in minute detail.

The only analogy I could think of would be contrasting Ocean's Eleven to Platoon. Both are great stories, but one is a caper and the other is a gritty condemnation of events in the real world. Both are valid forms of entertainment.

[Doppelganger]

The book with the heaviest slaughter-tolls are Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice. The colossal slaughter in DHG has severe consequences for the economy of Seven Cities in The Bonehunters. Pretty much the entire subcontinent's farming for the year has been lost because tons of 7C citizens thought, "Wahey, a crazy jihad! Let's join in!"

SPOILER: The Bonehunters

This results in plague and famine that by the end of The Bonehunters has led to the deaths of vast numbers of citizens of the landmass. Erikson even points out the more severe impact of this on Quon Tali, since Seven Cities is the breadbasket of the Empire. By the end of The Bonehunters famine is actually threatening to erupt on Quon Tali itself because of the cessation of food supplies from the north.

The consequences of the similarly apocalyptic war in Memories of Ice have not been revealed, but we will find out in Book 8 (Toll the Hounds) how bad things are on Genabackis. However, organised governments survived in Genabackis, the Malazan Empire is actually working with the locals to restore food supplies and even in MoI itself we saw Darujhistan and the other cities outside the Pannion warzone supplying food into the disaster area, so the consequences there will not be as severe (it helps the supply situation - in a grim way - that most of the population of the Pannion Domin had starved or cannibalised themselves to death anyway).

I agree that The Lies of Locke Lamora is an incredibly effective and enjoyable read. I'm not entire sure it can be contrasted against Bakker and Erikson though. It's a very different kind of book.

Is Bakker depressing: certainly. The series is essentially the rise to power of a cynical manipulator who lies his way into power. But that's also the point. Bakker makes some cutting observations and points in the story which make it fascinating. In terms of raw storytelling ability Bakker is perhaps not in the same tier with Martin or Lynch, but in terms of him wanting to make several points about the nature of power, faith and belief, he does succeed in his aims. That opening scene is difficult to stomach (though mild compared to the final scene in The Warrior-Prophet when the Inchoroi interrogates the plainspeople), but Bakker's point is that this (the real world, that is) is a world where such depravaties take place and in medieval times, even more so. GRRM doesn't shrink from this either, it should be pointed out. Even if he is slightly less graphic than Bakker, who it should be pointed out is hardly describing everything in minute detail.

The only analogy I could think of would be contrasting Ocean's Eleven to Platoon. Both are great stories, but one is a caper and the other is a gritty condemnation of events in the real world. Both are valid forms of entertainment.

SPOILER: Deadhouse Gates

The thing I found the most depressing about DHG was how graphic the war scenes were while the refugees were being drowned, skewered, trampled, etc. It was a really bloody tragic war. It's probably one of the most disturbing conflicts I've ever read in a novel.

[Kalbear]

There's sex in Erikson? Where? I've read the first 4 books and aside from the Felisin bits (and of those, only in DHG) there's barely anything.

I'll put it another way tho - romantic relationships in MBF are almost nonexistent. There are a few, here and there, but the vast bulk of the story has nothing to do with romance or really anything approaching romance. And again, this is pretty typical of D&D-styled novels.

D&D doesn't necessarily mean it's bad any more than saying a linguist wrote a fantasy novel means it's good. It just...is what it is.

[Arakasi]

SPOILER: Answer to Kal

Let's see. Tattersail and Paran in Gotm. There was also the scenes with Crokus and the gal he was pseudo-stalking, while not having sex was sexual in nature.

DHG yes the Felisin parts are pretty major. I think Duiker had sex with the female soldier as well, but it wasn't gone over much.

MOI had quite a decent amount. The fairly vulgar stuff with Stonny in the pub. The scenes before the K'Chain attacked Gruntle's groups. Hetan and her exploits (I agree they're silly but they're there.) And of course Whiskeyjack and Korlat (sp). Oh plus all the lesbian hints going on between Picker and Blend (sp).

HoC really didn't have much romance/sex at all. Lots of rapes though. Oh I guess there was the scene with Lostara and Pearl.

There is sex in the series. He just doesn't describe it like Martin or Bakker or others do. Certainly not the first author to take that approach, and I don't think saying no description of sex = dnd is quite accurate.

[Kalbear]

There is sex in the series. He just doesn't describe it like Martin or Bakker or others do. Certainly not the first author to take that approach, and I don't think saying no description of sex = dnd is quite accurate.

That's one aspect of it, to be sure. Another is the high-powered nature of the world and the people in it. Another is the clear view of people increasing in power as time goes on, both from experience (the ascendancy thing is a good example of this) and from acquired items. The general lack of political intrigue vs. military might; GotM is probably the most political of the 4 books, and it is still essentially about a war between the Empire and Rake. The general disregard of human life. The legendary items of ultimate power. And the general lack of romance. Now, a lot of these things are because of the setting and are purposeful, and none of these things are bad. But to say they're not indicative that the thing had its origins in RPGs? That's just silly. I can see it pretty clearly, and I played the games for years and years and years.

It doesn't make it bad, at all. Hell, Wildcards came out of a RPG and turned out to rock for the most part. Bakker did as well. But people have a reasonable argument when they say this.

[Guest Raidne]

Just curious - do people who really like tDtCB also think that Thus Spoke Zarathustra was one of Nietschze's best works? For me, a lot of western thinkers get really cheesy when they try to integrate eastern philosophy. Like Jesus, for instance.

[Werthead]

Actually, yeah. If a Vietnam movie could be said to be like Bakker, it would be Apocalypse Now. There's possibly thematic similarities (Kurtz = Moenghus, Martin Sheen = Cnaiur, kind of, since he goes through madness in his quest and emerges from it on the other side).

[Itkovian84]

Erikson all the way. I love this series with a passion i only share with my love of Reptiles my dog and of course my wife and son!!

It is very different from Martin and i love the differences. It is hard to compare the two and say who is honestly better. Erikson had some early issues with writing esp grammar. However the scope of his story and the emotion and depth of his characters out weigh that of Martins in my mind.

If i were to rank the books currently out.

Memroies of Ice

Bonehunters

Midnight Tides

Deadhouse Gates

House of Chains

Gardens of the Moon

Itkovian