Iron Islands - a retcon necessary?

[Hempen Dan the Ropemaker]

I think the big thing is: where are they getting all the wood for their ships on these small stony islands? I don't actually get bothered by this kind of stuff but I do agree that it doesn't make sense as much as the other regions do.

[Sullen]

That the Ironborn are able to hold the much larger Riverlands doesn't strike me as unrealistic...

After all, every Ironborn is worth ten men from the mainlands.

[Arakan]

Allright of course some relatively small Islands with "harsh climate" and "relatively infertile soil" (as stated in the books) which additionally suffer from time to time under multi-years long winters (as stated in the books) can feed half a Million people.

If we take this as the truth it seems reasonable to assume that the Reach alone, with a very favorable climate when not magic winter (as stated in the books), should have a population of 30-40 million given their sheer size and their undeniable advantages in agriculture. Not to mention the Riverlands, the Westerlands etc.

ok i think evth is clarified now :)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think the big thing is: where are they getting all the wood for their ships on these small stony islands? I don't actually get bothered by this kind of stuff but I do agree that it doesn't make sense as much as the other regions do.

Probably imports, at least partially. Asha remarks on gaining the woods of the North as being a huge benefit several times.

That the Ironborn are able to hold the much larger Riverlands doesn't strike me as unrealistic...

After all, every Ironborn is worth ten men from the mainlands.

And every Northerner is worth ten Southerners. Both are empty boasts, proven wrong in the text.

Allright of course some relatively small Islands with "harsh climate" and "relatively infertile soil" (as stated in the books) which additionally suffer from time to time under multi-years long winters (as stated in the books) can feed half a Million people.

If we take this as the truth it seems reasonable to assume that the Reach alone, with a very favorable climate when not magic winter (as stated in the books), should have a population of 30-40 million given their sheer size and their undeniable advantages in agriculture. Not to mention the Riverlands, the Westerlands etc.

ok i think evth is clarified now :)

Uh yes. Well, actually the population of Westeros in total is assumed to be 40-something millions. Personally, I'd place the numbers at twice that, but 40-something is generally accepted and definitely possible.

[Arakan]

That the Ironborn are able to hold the much larger Riverlands doesn't strike me as unrealistic...

After all, every Ironborn is worth ten men from the mainlands.

Dont let that here some Northmen on these Boards ;). Anyhow as a land force? I very much doubt that. They dont even have a history in heavy infantry, not to mention heavy cavalry. Power projection over large land areas with that background? Not to mention that actually no one likes them to put it mildly...

It just seems hart to believe. Martin should have let them be Pirates.

[Arakan]

Uh yes. Well, actually the population of Westeros in total is assumed to be 40-something millions. Personally, I'd place the numbers at twice that, but 40-something is generally accepted and definitely possible.

I spoke about the Reach alone...

If you give the Iron Islands half a Million despite multi-year long winters then you should give all of Westeros South of the Neck 80-100 million...

Of course that would be more than the European population pre Black Death (and we in Europe dont suffer multi-year long winters)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I spoke about the Reach alone...

If you give the Iron Islands half a Million despite multi-year long winters then you should give all of Westeros South of the Neck 80-100 million...

Of course that would be more than the European population pre Black Death (and we in Europe dont suffer multi-year long winters)

I would, as I said. Well, my personal estimation of the South was 60 millions. No need to argue about 30-50% on such a lack of sources though. And Europe's population pre Black Death was ~80 millions by the way.

[James Arryn]

Macedonia <<<<<<<<<<<< Persian Empire.

[Gneisenau]

I always thought the ancient IronBorn Kingdom was really just an empire that had its capital on the islands, as opposed to the Iron Islands having the Riverlands as a vassal state.

But I do agree that it does seem a bit unbelievably that the Iron Islands have the military might to take the Reach, given their supposed poor state.

[Arakan]

And Europe's population pre Black Death was ~80 millions by the way.

And in my book 80-100 millions is more than ~80 millions. But just by the way.

Actually population estimations for Europe pre-Black Death vary wildly, from 70-80 millions (conservative) to 100-120 millions (optimistic), also depending whether you include the areas of the former Kievan Rus or not.

We really should not start the smart ass game :P

[Arakan]

Macedonia <<<<<<<<<<<< Persian Empire.

I do not think that this is an appropriate example as

1) Alexander is someone VERY special in human history

2) his empire was dead when he died (some credits to the Ptolemeans)

3) the Persian Empire was a multi-ethnic empire with many internal tensions and Alexander profited massively from that

All in all not an appropriate comparison.

[Penguin king]

William I managed to conquer all of England with approxemately 10,000 men. The Idea that the Iron Islanders could take over the Riverlands at a time of internal strife or at a time when the Riverlands were already bloodied from a previous war seems more than plausable to me.

[toffeejay]

Considering their obvious Norse basis its not hard to believe they could have ruled the Riverlands seeing that the Vikings were able to control large parts of England, Scotland, Ireland and Northern France.

Once they had a foot hold the use of the three forks would have put them at an advantage over their enemies.

The size of the isles isn't the problem (yeah half size of Ireland its population makes sense) its the descriptions by Martin as a pretty barren place which makes it hard to believe its well populated or has the resourses to provide for a large population.

With the different religion holding sway it would have been better if the Isles had been larger and positioned further west of Westeros.

[Tim Thomason]

I do not think that this is an appropriate example as

1) Alexander is someone VERY special in human history

2) his empire was dead when he died (some credits to the Ptolemeans)

3) the Persian Empire was a multi-ethnic empire with many internal tensions and Alexander profited massively from that

All in all not an appropriate comparison.

Pretty good comparison. Perhaps Harwyn Hoare was an amazing military leader, to go from basically a pirate king on a desolate rock to carving himself an empire out of a chaotic group of noblemen. Ones presumably wishing to thrust off Stormland occupation. There is no hinterland for the Iron Islanders, true, but Harwyn's grandson seems to have made his capital in the Riverlands, and the Iron Kings may have gathered their forces and dominion out of the so-called conquered Rivermen.

Harwyn's conquest lasted about three generations, maybe less than 60 years, and is a much smaller empire than Alexander's. It was all destroyed in a heartbeat when another Conquest came wheeling in.

The Riverlands, is semi-multi-ethnic, with mostly Andal culture now, but a large contingent of First Men and during the Hoare's conquest, probably Drowned Men. To say the Riverlands had some internal tensions is putting things lightly.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

William I managed to conquer all of England with approxemately 10,000 men. The Idea that the Iron Islanders could take over the Riverlands at a time of internal strife or at a time when the Riverlands were already bloodied from a previous war seems more than plausable to me.

To be fair, William won a very complicated gamble at the time. Harold Godwin had to face Harald 'The Hard Ruler' in the battle of Stamford Bridge, and he won. There just wasn't really strength enough in Anglo-Saxon blood to face two armies and come out victorious.

[Fightbringer]

i think an explanation regarding the overpopulation of it may be neccessary, not a resizing of it so much. There are a few valid explanations for it:

- A large number of people fled there during the Long Night in an attempt to escape the Others

- The empire centered on the isles meant that a large number of people were drawn there, as traders, or as thralls, or just to take advantages of the riches that were presumably to be found around the isles at the time

- Could be that there is no overpopulation, just that the ironborn benefit from a number of factors in being able to gather men, eg a proffesional soldiery in the iron fleet, and the small size of it means that lordships are a lot closer together, and so they are more efficient in gathering manpower. I have seen in other posts that its estimate a rural society can only stand to arm roughly 2% of it populace before imploding. The Ironborn aren't based around agriculture as much as the other kingdoms,and more around trade and plunder, so they are able to field more men than the other kingdoms are able to.

[The Black Prince]

I've always found the idea that the Iron Islands could hold the Riverlands and force them to build Harrenhal kind of absurd.

The Danes managed to conquer large parts of England although they came from a relatively smaller country.

[doubletee]

In another thread a discussion came up about the size of the Iron Islands. Based on some indications given in the text (basically the lenght of the Wall) we can probably assume that the combined landmass of the Iron Islands make up at maximum roughly 40,000 sqkm which would be half the size of Ireland. This combined with the economic, climate and logistic restraints really pushes the necessary suspension of disbelief to a breaking point.

Hey, nice thread! haha. So I started reading this, while looking at the images in my other thread and I feel like our general consensus that the Iron islands only make up a combined 40,000 sq.km is flawed. I know I am the one who originally suggested it based on my size comparison pictures, but I did some fooling around and put together a better refference image for you guys. The scale is still acurate, as I used the exact same comparison picture that I made in the last topic. I simpley took the 7 iron islands from my picture, cut, rotated, flipped and positioned them across the nearby island of Haiti/Dominican Republic and managed to cover somewhere in the range of 95% or more of the isle. As you can see in my picture below, the island's combined surface area between the two countries is 76,193 sq.km. So we could pretty reasonably say the Iron islands are somewhere in the 95%+ range of that number for surface area. In comparison Ireland is 84,421 sq.km.

Iron island actual scaled size in the Bahamas, with bonus Haiti/Dom.Rep. comparison

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/tommyknoker/newironislecompare_zps5dc86a44.png

Of course this doesn't change the argument about the actual landscape of the islands. From what we see in illustraitions and the show, Martin's vision of them was fairly baren and rocky with cliff and rock on almost all shores. The very biggest of the Isle's Great Wyk appears to be mostly cliff and rocky terrain. I don't have much too add to the discussion per say, I just wanted to share this latest image comparison for a fresh and more accurate idea of the combined land mass in the islands.

[Arakan]

The Danes managed to conquer large parts of England although they came from a relatively smaller country.

I hear these England examples (the same with William the Conqueror) and dont want to offend anyone but might it be that England was nothing more than European backwater at these times?

I find the England comparisons as totally inappropriate. The Ironborn conquered large parts (much larger than England) of the most populous regions of Westeros and stayed an alien force, more like occupiers than anything else (if we believe the text).

Compare that to the Normans in Northern France (aka Normandy) or the Vikings in the Kievan Rus (if we believe this version). There are many examples where a relatively small alien force conquered a larger indigenous population but they all have one in common: they blended into or fusioned with the larger one in order to establish a stable rule.

Nothing of that can be said about the Ironborn. They stayed alien, maybe feared but never liked, didnt have an attractive culture to subsitute the original one.

Under those circumstances, how could the Ironborn rule over an enemy population much much larger than them? Even if they have a population of half a million how can they rule or better occupy a population maybe 40 times their number?

[Arakan]

Hey, nice thread! haha. So I started reading this, while looking at the images in my other thread and I feel like our general consensus that the Iron islands only make up a combined 40,000 sq.km is flawed. I know I am the one who originally suggested it based on my size comparison pictures, but I did some fooling around and put together a better refference image for you guys. The scale is still acurate, as I used the exact same comparison picture that I made in the last topic. I simpley took the 7 iron islands from my picture, cut, rotated, flipped and positioned them across the nearby island of Haiti/Dominican Republic and managed to cover somewhere in the range of 95% or more of the isle. As you can see in my picture below, the island's combined surface area between the two countries is 76,193 sq.km. So we could pretty reasonably say the Iron islands are somewhere in the 95%+ range of that number for surface area. In comparison Ireland is 84,421 sq.km.

Iron island actual scaled size in the Bahamas, with bonus Haiti/Dom.Rep. comparison

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/tommyknoker/newironislecompare_zps5dc86a44.png

Of course this doesn't change the argument about the actual landscape of the islands. From what we see in illustraitions and the show, Martin's vision of them was fairly baren and rocky with cliff and rock on almost all shores. The very biggest of the Isle's Great Wyk appears to be mostly cliff and rocky terrain. I don't have much too add to the discussion per say, I just wanted to share this latest image comparison for a fresh and more accurate idea of the combined land mass in the islands.

Hahaha Doubletee you kill me ;)