Does Littlefinger want people to know about Sansa?

[Newstar]

Well, sleeping with people worked for Littlefinger, but didn't work for Cersei (except Robert, of course, but that's another matter).

Somehow, I get the sense that it wasn't merely that Littlefinger succeeded and Cersei failed. Littlefinger manipulating Lysa (through sex) seems to be seen to be a mark of his brilliance, whereas Cersei using the same tactic seems to be seen as proof of her moral turpitude and sluttiness. It seems totally baffling to me, but that seems to be the attitude. Total double standard.

The thing is, Sansa can be his junior partner and be at his command.

The problem is that by making her his junior partner, he has ensured that she won't be at his command. If he'd treated her like a pawn and kept her in the dark, she would have no knowledge and no ability to leverage that knowledge to destroy him. As it is, she now has both. Utter stupidity on Littlefinger's part. He knows that sometimes even the humblest pieces refuse to make the moves he plans for them, and he knows that he's teaching Sansa the game of thrones. He's just too stupid and too arrogant to put two and two together.

The thing is, Sansa can be his junior partner and be at his command. Lysa might or might not carry on that role.

So get rid of Lysa if she won't play ball and use his other stooges--of which he has many, it's been suggested that Colemon has been under Littlefinger's power for quite some time--to do whatever needs doing (and you haven't made the case that there's anything that needs doing beyond running a household, entertaining guests, etc. etc., things that are hardly within Sansa's sole power to do). It may seem convenient to keep Sansa around, but it's not in any way necessary, and it's extraordinarily stupid to do so given the risks involved, as I have said.

But he can't betroth Sansa to Harry to Heir so early as Alayne to Harry.

So what? The marriage has to be put on hold at any rate; "Alayne" can't marry Harry any sooner than it's safe for Sansa to do so. If he wanted to expedite the marriage contract to lock down Harry as a suitor, there are other ways of accomplishing the same task (spreading unsavoury rumours about Harry so that no one will want to marry him, that sort of thing).

Yes, he was drunk, but how is going to make Sansa seduce Harry and line up with his plans if he doesn't tell her? He just can't keep her completely in the dark, and he can't operate alone either.

He doesn't need Sansa to seduce Harry if she's Sansa and not Alayne; Harry's not going to have to be coaxed into marrying the heir to Winterfell. However, Littlefinger's kept her on a strictly need to know basis, as Sansa implied in her last POV, so why does he go on blabbering about his genius plan to Sansa? He could have done what the Tyrells attempted to do with Willas: pass Harry off as a good husband for Sansa without filling her in on any of the political ramifications. Besides, if he knew Sansa well enough, he wouldn't try to sell the marriage to her based on its political advantages, he would sell it the way Margaery and Olenna tried to sell the Willas marriage (Willas is kind, sweet, gentle, a good man, blah blah blah, he'll do right by you, you can make a home with him, blah blah blah). However, he frames it as a power play, which was the one thing that probably guaranteed that Sansa wouldn't go for it. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

In short, I think Littlefinger is thinking with, let's say, more than his brain, but his brain was part of the decision making process. He desires her, and that's part of his decision. But at the end of the day, he also needs her to play her part.

Except that he's already allowed his desire for Sansa to blind him into making a catastrophic mistake (kissing Sansa in the open) at least once. It now appears that he's made another, by getting drunk and spilling the details and rationale behind his grand plan for Sansa to her, giving her an opportunity to go against him. So really, his desire for Sansa is outweighing whatever other brains he may possess. Very stupid.

It doesn't, I'm just curious.

I'm equally curious as to why you're so anxious to drag Sandor into the discussion when one makes the straightforward observation that Littlefinger--or, as you call him, "The Great One"--is a pedophile, but I have my theories. :D

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So what? The marriage has to be put on hold at any rate; "Alayne" can't marry Harry any sooner than it's safe for Sansa to do so. If he wanted to expedite the marriage contract to lock down Harry as a suitor, there are other ways of accomplishing the same task (spreading unsavoury rumours about Harry so that no one will want to marry him, that sort of thing).

He doesn't need Sansa to seduce Harry if she's Sansa and not Alayne; Harry's not going to have to be coaxed into marrying the heir to Winterfell. However, Littlefinger's kept her on a strictly need to know basis, as Sansa implied in her last POV, so why does he go on blabbering about his genius plan to Sansa? He could have done what the Tyrells attempted to do with Willas: pass Harry off as a good husband for Sansa without filling her in on any of the political ramifications. Besides, if he knew Sansa well enough, he wouldn't try to sell the marriage to her based on its political advantages, he would sell it the way Margaery and Olenna tried to sell the Willas marriage (Willas is kind, sweet, gentle, a good man, blah blah blah, he'll do right by you, you can make a home with him, blah blah blah). However, he frames it as a power play, which was the one thing that probably guaranteed that Sansa wouldn't go for it. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

That would come back haunting him as soon as he tries to place Harry on the Falcon Throne. Bad idea, really, really bad idea.

Marrying a wanted fugitive and going against the Iron Throne in open? That's slightly less attractive than marrying the heir to Winterfell. Slightly.

[mambru]

Behind his facade of being the puppetmaster who knows everything, has everything carefully planned, and pulls all the strings of people who never know they're being manipulated, I think that Littlefinger really does like chaos and (consciously or not) likes to risk things and throw the dice even when he doesn't need to. IMO, I think that half the reason he ended up kissing Sansa in front of Lysa was not just because he was overwhelmed with infatuation for Sansa and couldn't stop himself. There was attraction, certainly, but he was no doubt aware Lysa had been watching them build a castle for awhile, and I think that was part of the reason why he acted - he was deathly bored already with his marriage to Lysa and wanted to stir the shit to see what would happen. The results almost got out of his control. The thing is, he's in love with his own cleverness, and every time he averts disaster and grabs an advantage from it, his admiration for himself grows...but till now there's been no audience who can fully appreciate his genius. With Sansa as his captive audience, he's simultaneously grabbed the pleasure of bragging about his cleverness and adding a challenging new risk that he thinks he can manage. But like a juggle who's managed to juggle 10 knives and thinks he can add another 20 without a problem, his luck's bound to run out eventually.

[Colonel Green]

There was attraction, certainly, but he was no doubt aware Lysa had been watching them build a castle for awhile

That I don't believe.

[complexphoenix]

Regarding double standards: as far as I can tell, LF has only ever used his own sex appeal to get what he wants from *one* person, namely Lysa, a woman who outranks him, whereas Cersei has been whoring it up with a whole bunch of guys who are beneath her. So that's why LF's using sex on Lysa is seen as impressive while Cersei's use of sex on Lancel and the Kettleblacks is seen as contemptible.

Should also note that LF's plans with Lysa turn out well for him, at least so far, whereas Cersei's uses of Lancel and the Kettleblacks have blown up in her face. Nothing succeeds like success, people. We tend to admire successful people and look down on unsuccessful ones, and considerations about *how* they succeeded or failed are often very secondary. Just look at all the people who bash Ned and Robb, and all the people who love Tywin and Littlefinger.

[Pod The Impaler]

In closing Sansa will be a great asset to "The Great One". And maybe he is, in fact, considering using her status to claim the north for himself, and the whole HtH thing is a ruse to KEEP SANSA IN THE DARK? Educating and tutoring her in the game would be perfect if he was planning on taking her to bride. Imagine two "The Great Ones" ruling over the North, Vale and Riverlands. Seems like a "The Great One" goal doesn't it?

I think this is Littlefinger's ultimate plan. He doesn't want Sansa to be with Harry, but for himself. Why the Harry gambit ?

Well perhaps at some point Harry will die (and Sweetrobin), and by then the lords of the Vale will be committed to some sort of Vale / North / Riverlands union (politically and militarily) - their hand will be forced, there will be no backing out and then along will come the replacement husband: a man of the Vale with a lot of power already, plenty of wealth and supplies and allies - and perhaps the last small fraction of Arryn blood, tying in with my theory that Baelish actually has some Gulltown Arryn blood. At that point, despite distrusting him, they will be railroaded into backing his marriage to Sansa.

OF course, this is a grand ambition is fine - reality will go according to its own designs, not his.

[DireMaker]

OF course, this is a grand ambition is fine - reality will go according to its own designs, not his.

:agree: This is so, but how will he pick up the cards should his house fall?

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I'm equally curious as to why you're so anxious to drag Sandor into the discussion when one makes the straightforward observation that Littlefinger--or, as you call him, "The Great One"--is a pedophile, but I have my theories. :D

There's no dragging at all, I just asked a (seemingly) simple question out of curiosity. I'll keep waiting on an answer.

[AndyOfHouseKitch]

Littlefinger's ambitions with Sansa could follow that, the only successful overthrowing of the Iron Throne, has been when the vale and the North were united, John and Eddard... and the Riverlands, which cost him his beloved Cat. So it would stand to reason that the way to "win" would be to emulate what Robert did, and get the daughter of the woman who was stolen from him in the process

[Trigger Warning]

As the daughter of the Lord Protector even as a bastard she is being introduced to the ruling class of the Vale.

By the end of AFFC she seems to be more or less regarded as the lady of the Eyrie by its inhabitants and is a favourite of Robert Arryn, I always got the impression that LF's main reason for having her on display as Alayne at the Eyrie was so that she would be able enshrine herself in the ruling household of the vale and in doing so make them more accepting when she is revealed as Sansa.

[mambru]

There was attraction, certainly, but he was no doubt aware Lysa had been watching them build a castle for awhile

That I don't believe.

While she was working on her castle, Sansa was peripherally aware of Lysa looking out to watch her for awhile, then some of the servants occasionally looking, curious to see what she was up to. Littlefinger was aware it was quite a public place, and knew when he kissed her that even if Lysa didn't see it happen straight off, one of the other servants could easily have done so and spread the gossip. IMO, yes, he was attracted to Sansa, but also he was bored with the status quo and wanted to stir things up, because he's always convinced his cleverness can save a situation to his advantage no matter how complicated it is. That time he almost got Sansa killed. IMO, LF is prone to deliberately complicating matters so he can challenge himself with the solution. This is because, IMO, resolving a difficult situation in his favor boosts his ego by proving him the genius that he's always believed himself to be. This may be why he's taken a lot of risks that Sansa would be discovered. But he's never given sufficient credit to the fact that he's had a LOT of luck till now, and sooner or later it's bound to run out.