Ease off Jamie, he's a good guy.......

[butterbumps!]

With a bunch of crossbow men guarding him.

Only Pia can really say yes.

Well, no, he rolled the dice on whether they'd hit the bear versus him. But the mere fact he came back and prevented Brienne's death is kind of a good thing. And further, Brienne doesn't find Jaime evil or irredeemable. She comes to see him as being capable of good, so I think she does offer a counterpoint to those who'd say Jaime's a villain in universe.

[Winter's Knight]

right. all those things. But then ask Pia if Jaime's a good guy. Or Brienne, especially in terms of how he returned to Harrenhall and threw himself between her and a bear.

One could of course argue that those are Pet the Dog moments.

[Anath]

Good? Jaime Lannister? I an a fan of his, he's fascinating and he's gone through some (forced) changes. He's done some awesome things. But even I wouldn't call him good.

[David Selig]

Well, no, he rolled the dice on whether they'd hit the bear versus him. But the mere fact he came back and prevented Brienne's death is kind of a good thing. And further, Brienne doesn't find Jaime evil or irredeemable. She comes to see him as being capable of good, so I think she does offer a counterpoint to those who'd say Jaime's a villain in universe.

Mostly because he's really hot and Brienne has a crush on him.

Jaime's capable of good, sure, but so is pretty much everyone, doesn't mean he's not a villain.

[butterbumps!]

One could of course argue that those are Pet the Dog moments.

I don't think that's fair, though. Was abolishing slavery Dany's "pet the dog" moment? I mean that sort of absurdly, but the point is that I get irked at how Jaime threads tend to be all or nothing.

Jaime is both really, really good and really really bad. It's a condition of both extremes in an individual, and I just don't think it's fair to gloss over either side.

Mostly because he's really hot and Brienne has a crush on him.

Jaime's capable of good, sure, but so is pretty much everyone, doesn't mean he's not a villain.

I give Brienne more credit than this.

And honestly-- why so much black and white judgment?

[Jamie Lannister]

JAMIE LANNISTER IS A GOOD GUY!!! :agree:

This gentleman gets it.

[Winter's Knight]

Mostly because he's really hot and Brienne has a crush on him.

Jaime's capable of good, sure, but so is pretty much everyone, doesn't mean he's not a villain.

Don't be unfair, Brienne loves Jaime because he took a great risk by standing up for her against the Bloody Mummers, because he came back for her, vouched for her innocence at KL and gave her a way to keep her promise to Lady Cat.

I don't think that's fair, though. Was abolishing slavery Dany's "pet the dog" moment? I mean that sort of absurdly, but the point is that I get irked at how Jaime threads tend to be all or nothing.

Jaime is both really, really good and really really bad. It's a condition of both extremes in an individual, and I just don't think it's fair to gloss over either side.

I give Brienne more credit than this.

And honestly-- why so much black and white judgment?

The trope wouldn't apply to Dany because she is a good person who does questionable things, rather than a bad person who occasionally does good things.

The point Bumps is that Jaime-like Tyrion is not, as OP claims "a good guy". He's complex, sure and morally ambigious but not ".good"

[SeanF]

Don't be unfair, Brienne loves Jaime because he took a great risk by standing up for her against the Bloody Mummers, because he came back for her, vouched for her innocence at KL and gave her a way to keep her promise to Lady Cat.

The trope wouldn't apply to Dany because she is a good person who does questionable things, rather than a bad person who occasionally does good things.

The point Bumps is that Jaime-like Tyrion is not, as OP claims "a good guy". He's complex, sure and morally ambigious but not ".good"

Dany's personality is different from that of Jaime, but I think I'd place her in the same morally ambiguous category as him.

[Mithras]

Brienne is a true knight. She cant let her "crush" on Jaime cloud her judgement about him. And she came to realize that Jaime didnot return to his old scumbag self in KL, rather he wants to keep his oaths as much as he can.

[butterbumps!]

Don't be unfair, Brienne loves Jaime because he took a great risk by standing up for her against the Bloody Mummers, because he came back for her, vouched for her innocence at KL and gave her a way to keep her promise to Lady Cat.

The trope wouldn't apply to Dany because she is a good person who does questionable things, rather than a bad person who occasionally does good things.

The point Bumps is that Jaime-like Tyrion is not, as OP claims "a good guy". He's complex, sure and morally ambigious but not ".good"

How does one draw the line between someone who is "good but does atrocious things" and someone who is "bad but does really good things"? Do you not find that to be arbitrary? Dany and Jaime are both very dark heroes.

It's not fair to negate that Jaime behaved more than just decently to Brienne; yes, she feels indebted to him for these things, but these, in and of themselves, are evidence of good in Jaime.

I'm not arguing that Jaime's good. He's really more like dueling extremes, and I think his highs and lows tend to be more extreme than someone like Tyrion, for example.

ETA: I'm not sure how Brienne's positive feelings toward him are written off as a crush rather than testimony that Brienne sees good in him.

[David Selig]

Jaime murdered 3 guys because he was angry and wanted to teach their boss a lesson. That's a clear villain in my book, clearly irredeemable. Not that he's doing anything major to redeem himself anyway, he's hanging people without a second thought, no trial or anything, and even pats himself on the back after that about his "justice". He's working hard to help the likes of Walder Frey get what they earned by their treachery.

[Sansa_Stark]

Jaime murdered 3 guys because he was angry and wanted to teach their boss a lesson. That's a clear villain in my book, clearly irredeemable. Not that he's doing anything major to redeem himself anyway, he's hanging people without a second thought, no trial or anything, and even pats himself on the back after that about his "justice". He's working hard to help the likes of Walder Frey get what they earned by their treachery.

Remember his threat to Edmure.

Remember this quote which might imply he was serious.

"It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt."

[Fat Mac]

Remember his threat to Edmure.

Remember this quote which might imply he was serious.

"It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt."

All that quote tells me was that Jaime was mad that Genna said that Tyrion was Tywin's true son, not him. He was offended, so he tried to overcompensate by making a Tywin-esque threat.

[butterbumps!]

Jaime murdered 3 guys because he was angry and wanted to teach their boss a lesson. That's a clear villain in my book, clearly irredeemable. Not that he's doing anything major to redeem himself anyway, he's hanging people without a second thought, no trial or anything, and even pats himself on the back after that about his "justice". He's working hard to help the likes of Walder Frey get what they earned by their treachery.

I see. So when Loras murders the Rainbow guard after Renly dies, I suppose he's utterly without merit too. As is QoT for killing a child. As is Dany for more than I can count, but let's start with the 163. As is Tyrion, Arya, hell, perhaps Qhorin too for ordering torture. Oh yes, and I suppose Lady Stoneheart, who hangs people without a trial-- who cares that she set up an orphanage, it's those hangings that make her an irredeemable villain.

[Mithras]

Remember his threat to Edmure.

Remember this quote which might imply he was serious.

"It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt."

Those threats were hollow. It worked because many people still thinks that he is still the scumbag he was. He cant break his oaths anymore. He knows it subconsciously. Remember the dream where he saw the ghosts of old KG brothers and Rhaegar.

[Sansa_Stark]

All that quote tells me was that Jaime was mad that Genna said that Tyrion was Tywin's true son, not him. He was offended, so he tried to overcompensate by making a Tywin-esque threat.

Which is why I said might.

But the reason why I think it does imply Jaime is serious, is because Tywin isn't the kind of man to make threats that he cannot back up.

Hell, Jaime even says only a fool makes threats he cannot keep.

[David Selig]

I see. So when Loras murders the Rainbow guard after Renly dies, I suppose he's utterly without merit too. As is QoT for killing a child. As is Dany for more than I can count, but let's start with the 163. As is Tyrion, Arya, hell, perhaps Qhorin too for ordering torture. Oh yes, and I suppose Lady Stoneheart, who hangs people without a trial-- who cares that she set up an orphanage, it's those hangings that make her an irredeemable villain.

Stoneheart has trials.

Loras is scum too, of course, though not as bad as Jaime. 163 slavers - good riddance, too bad she didn't crucify more of them.

But this is kind of offtopic, no?

[Mark Antony]

God I hate Loras for killing Robar. That was almost as bad as Jaime having Jory.killed.

[Sansa_Stark]

God I hate Loras for killing Robar. That was almost as bad as Jaime having Jory.killed.

Same here.

I feel bad for Emmon Cuy too.

[Fat Mac]

God I hate Loras for killing Robar. That was almost as bad as Jaime having Jory.killed.

I don't hate Loras per say, but that did anger me. Between the Others and the Tyrells, Bronze Yohn is going to have his hands full while he's kicking ass to avenge his sons :cool4: