Your Original Opinion's Before Getting on This Forum

[Sansa_Stark]

That's a sad statement.

I still love the series.

But when I first read the series, I thought Eddard Stark was this completely honorable saint with no flaws save for being honorable to the point of stupidity.

Then you find out his abuse toward Theon.

Still like Ned, but I can't think of him as a saint anymore.

[Howling Mad]

The forum taught me that Dunk and Egg existed and the importance of reading those wonderful stories.

[Minsc]

I just find it interesting that there are a ton of people who complain about Stannis' crimes and love dany at the same time.

How isn't the converse equally true?

[Sansa_Stark]

How isn't the converse equally true?

Stannis doesn't profit from slavery.

[Lady Sharya]

But when I first read the series, I thought Eddard Stark was this completely honorable saint with no flaws save for being honorable to the point of stupidity.

Then you find out his abuse toward Theon.

Still like Ned, but I can't think of him as a saint anymore.

What abuse? Did I miss something?

[nirolo]

next to Stannis, anyone would look chubby. (he's bulimic).

That's because for years Stannis has been subsisting on nothing but his own grind-up teeth.

[Minsc]

Stannis doesn't profit from slavery.

No, he just considers burning his innocent nephew alive.

[Minsc]

What abuse? Did I miss something?

Ned was cold and distant to Theon, which is the same thing people consider abusive when Catelyn did it to Jon.

[Sansa_Stark]

What abuse? Did I miss something?

Yes. Theon always lived in fear of Ned Stark. Remember, he was a hostage and Ned Stark would have to kill him if his father rebelled again.

Ned was cold and distant to Theon, which is the same thing people consider abusive when Catelyn did it to Jon.

I consider it abuse either way, but Theon had the added bonus of living in true fear of The Ned.

inb4ssmdefendingcatgetsposted

[Lady Sharya]

Yes. Theon always lived in fear of Ned Stark. Remember, he was a hostage and Ned Stark would have to kill him if his father rebelled again.

I consider it abuse either way, but Theon had the added bonus of living in true fear of The Ned.

inb4ssmdefendingcatgetsposted

I didn't get the impression Ned ever actually threatened Theon. I assumed Ned took him as ward to save him from a possible death sentence from Robert. And Theon lived better in WF then with his brothers on the Iron Isles.

Besides, weren't you reminding us of how other Khals shared wives in defense of Drogo's treatment of Dany?

[Sansa_Stark]

I didn't get the impression Ned ever actually threatened Theon. I assumed Ned took him as ward to save him from a possible death sentence from Robert. And Theon lived better in WF then with his brothers on the Iron Isles.

Besides, weren't you reminding us of how other Khals shared wives in defense of Drogo's treatment of Dany?

Why would Robert kill Theon though? He was a boy and had nothing to do with the rebellion, and Robert forgave the Greyjoys. He was a merciful man for the most part.

And Theon's POV is a lot different than Ned's. And even in AGOT, Ned told Cat to watch Theon closely, as his father's ships may have been needed, possibly a threat.

I wasn't defending Drogo, just pointing out how horrible dothraki custom can be.

[modbelle]

-Targs are fire proof...apparently I was once very wrong about this.

-Most people believe Arya will live...whereas here she seems to be voted most likely to die.

-Slightly bothered by the people confused for other people in the books (i.e. no one knowing Jeyne Poole is not Arya Stark, boy thinking he's Aegon pretending to be young Griff, Brienne wondering if Willow is Arya Stark, etc.)...now I cannot stand it, I just want the real people to stand up (the secret people theories is making me see different people in everyone). Make the madness stop.

[Lady Sharya]

Why would Robert kill Theon though? He was a boy and had nothing to do with the rebellion, and Robert forgave the Greyjoys. He was a merciful man for the most part.

And Theon's POV is a lot different than Ned's. And even in AGOT, Ned told Cat to watch Theon closely, as his father's ships may have been needed, possibly a threat.

I wasn't defending Drogo, just pointing out how horrible dothraki custom can be.

Robert wasn't upset over Rhaegar's children and ordered the assassination of a 14yr old Dany. I assumed he would have the same pattern of behavior toward Balon and his Heir after the rebellion...kill the threat. I could be way off here.

However, if you view Drogo's treatment according to his cultures standards, is it fair to view Ned as an abuser for taking Theon and basically treating him as a ward?

[franko99]

Before this forum:

- I used to like Jon, now I'm indifferent to him, and I rather see him die (and remain death) instead of some of the theories people made about him

- I used to admire Barristan

- I thought Mormont's raven was just a comic relief, now he's one of my favorite minor characters :eek:

- I thought Patchface was creepy, now I found him even scarier than the great Other

[Sansa_Stark]

Robert wasn't upset over Rhaegar's children and ordered the assassination of a 14yr old Dany. I assumed he would have the same pattern of behavior toward Balon and his Heir after the rebellion...kill the threat. I could be way off here.

However, if you view Drogo's treatment according to his cultures standards, is it fair to view Ned as an abuser for taking Theon and basically treating him as a ward?

Robert ordered Dany's assassination because he was scared shitless of Drogo. He could have had them killed any time but didn't because Jon Arryn convinced him not to, but probably because he also realized that weren't a threat either. And the Targaryens are different from the Greyjoys. The Greyjoys are the scum of Westeros, and many do not even consider them a some family. They are hardly a threat to the Baratheon Dynasty. A Targaryen heir with a Dothraki hoard + those who hate Robert could be a massive threat to his House's status.

Killing Theon off indiscriminately seems like a petty act, seeing as though he was just an innocent child. The Greyjoys just wanted independence, the Targaryens wanted Robert's heads and the throne back.

[MrPants]

I missed so much on my first read. I read the whole series (at least what has been written) plus dunk and egg novellas before finding the forum.

I missed:

R+L=J

Tywin being poisoned

GNC ( well, I didn't see it as one huge thing just little bit not guessing they were ALL in cahoots)

The Hound=gravedigger thing

While reading the books I hated Dany, I still don't love her but I'm more indifferent it see the part her character plays in the whole)

I also loved Cat but I'm slowly moving away from that. I also wasn't shocked about the RW and also didn't care about Robb, still don't.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

I also learned that I was one of apparently two readers who still doesn't see how it is at all possible that http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96583-Small-questions-v.10014#entry4965634'>Arya IDed the KOM by warging a cat. I don't know if this has taught me that I am just fundamentally incapable of Reading for Comprehension: House of Black and White Version...or that Arya shifting into a kitty cat is so damn adorable it has the power to convince readers to ignore chronological setup. I mean...it was both awesome and adorable, so I get it.

[The Mother of The Others]

Both Dany and Stannis are doing their best to control the pest population. When you see yourself as special enough to be king or queen, you kind of have to see the people in your way as less special than you, right? Pests. Robbers of your destiny who have no great destiny of their own, but only the potential to rob the world of you, it's best possible future monarch. And what a tragedy it would be if your sense of human decency kept you from cracking down on the pest people so much that they got the better of you! Your special destiny, derailed by... them? No. It's unconscionable. So if you think the world would benefit more from you being king/queen than from you being dead, you're going to do what it takes to quiet these pesky opponents so less waves of them are willing to rise up against you next week. Because if you want to live to be the bestest ruler ever, you've got to start dancin' to the tune of Stayin' Alive, Stayin' Alive. And when your push for power is in jeopardy, you learn to compromise your stance on people not getting burned or crucified. So that the world can get the ruler it deserves..... except what you learn by going through this process is it's a horrible world where people like you are doing horrible things to stay in power, so in that sense the world always does get what it deserves----terrors in the night and heads on a pike in the light. That's the path before them, if they want to stay alive WITH winning chances intact. So...

I've never seen their killings as a reason to revile these two characters, which is why you've never seen me join in on those heated threads about this stuff. I see their behavior more as a study of what happens to the world when limited resources & unlimited ambition clash. It's a study of the reality of being a conqueror. For me it's never been about comparing and contrasting the atrocities of Dany & Stannis to see which of them shines marginally brighter. Why bother. The books are a chronicle of the pathways to power. Horrible things are horrible and hate-able, but in this case the characters exist not for us to boo them but rather as illustrations of George's theme, the game of thrones being played. So why would I choose to hate these fake people for putting on the show I've paid to see?

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

I also learned that I was one of apparently two readers who still doesn't see how it is at all possible that http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96583-Small-questions-v.10014#entry4965634 '>Arya IDed the KOM by warging a cat. I don't know if this has taught me that I am just fundamentally incapable of Reading for Comprehension: House of Black and White Version...or that Arya shifting into a kitty cat is so damn adorable it has the power to convince readers to ignore chronological setup. I mean...it was both awesome and adorable, so I get it.

[Sansa_Stark]

No, he just considers burning his innocent nephew alive.

And Dany watched her brother being killed by a pot of molten gold and did nothing.

I think that's worse.