Is Stannis doomed as a kinslayer?

[Dance Layder]

Does it count that he had a shadow baby kill Renly, I mean, he was the one who ordered it. Aren't kinslayers accursed (Victarion won't kill Euron for this reason) so in the end will he fail just because he broke a sacred law?

[Fat Mac]

Stannis didn't order Renly's death. Mel told Stannis to sail and attack Storm's End, because she told him that Renly would die. She didn't say how. Stannis had a nightmare at the time Renly died, and Stannis felt that he was dead. That was it. And then after Renly died, he put the pieces together with the shadow baby.

[aceluby]

There isn't any textual evidence supporting that he 'ordered it'. He believes Mel saw it in her fires, but ultimately feels guilty because he dreamt of being the shadow baby that killed Renly. I think it's a bit of denial, but he didn't order Mel to do it and it's a definite grey area as far as kinslaying.

[Max of Castamere]

even if he did order it, i think it is different because he had a good reason. renly committed treason and i think this might negate the curse. well at least i hope.

[aceluby]

even if he did order it, i think it is different because he had a good reason. renly committed treason and i think this might negate the curse. well at least i hope.

A curse loophole? Maybe, but the very idea of loopholes in curses or prophecies due to justifications or technicalities bothers me.

[Bronn Urgandy]

I guess we'll find out if Bloodraven turns out to be cursed, since Deamon was his blood but was in open rebellion and would've done the same for old Brynden Rivers, similar situation with Stannis, Renly was in the wrong, and he would've killed Stannis. Although the Stark boy in the Bael the Bard story wasn't spared the curse because he was an unknowing kinslayer, but that's just a story.

On the other hand, there are a few kinslayers hanging about right now, how many have actually been, what you could call, punished for it?

[Queen of Whores]

If Stannis is a kinslayer, then Dany is even more so for allowing Viserys to be killed. I don't believe Stannis is, despite the HBO series' much more villainous portrayal of Stannis and D&D changing things around so Stannis really did know and order it.

[Draco_Dracul]

If Stannis is a kinslayer, then Dany is even more so for allowing Viserys to be killed. I don't believe Stannis is, despite the HBO series' much more villainous portrayal of Stannis and D&D changing things around so Stannis really did know and order it.

Viserys was dead the moment he drew steel in Veas Dothrak. There is nothing she could have possibly done to save him.

I'm pretty sure Stannis is doomed. It doesn't matter if he is really a kinslayer, he is doomed all the same for unrelated reasons.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Viserys was dead the moment he drew steel in Veas Dothrak. There is nothing she could have possibly done to save him.

And Dany drew blood in Vaes Dothrak. If Viserys deserved to die, so does she. The difference is that he got caught and she didn't.

As to Stannis, I think these curses are self-fulfilling and rely mostly on your act being caught. The "curse" isn't a curse so much as it's the social stigma attached to the act. If people think you're cursed, they avoid you, won't do business with you, etc. And when you're broke and alone, you really do seem cursed and people are proved right.

[Mad Monkey]

The kinslayer taboo doesn't care if you did it by accident or if you did it for a good reason. Robb called Karstark a traitor and Karstark called him a kinslayer. According to the taboo, Karstark is right too. Think about it though -- if you could justify killing your brother just because you accuse him of a crime, then the taboo is meaningless in a world.

That being said, I don't think there's any supernatural force enforcing the rules. People suffer and die in this series no matter what they do; blaming it on a status as a kinslayer is like blaming it on family curses or astrology or string theory.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

If Stannis is a kinslayer, then Dany is even more so for allowing Viserys to be killed.

It's all about kin>>slaying<<<<<

I fear that him killing Renly is indeed foreshadowing his unfortunate end, since imo it is an important theme that kinslayers generally don't end up well on GRRTH.

[Draco_Dracul]

And Dany drew blood in Vaes Dothrak. If Viserys deserved to die, so does she. The difference is that he got caught and she didn't.

What blood did she draw there? I'm drawing a blank.

[Mad Monkey]

It's all about kin>>slaying<<<<<

I fear that him killing Renly is indeed foreshadowing his unfortunate end, since imo it is an important theme that kinslayers generally don't end up well on GRRTH.

I don't think you really want to open up that Dany/kinslayer can of worms again. I've seen it play out dozens of times on this forum and it usually doesn't go anywhere. (The Stannis/kinslayer threads don't really go anywhere either though, so maybe it's not a problem...)

[Mad Monkey]

What blood did she draw there? I'm drawing a blank.

It was here:

Viserys picked up the cloak and sniffed at it. "This stinks of manure. Perhaps I shall use it as a horse blanket."

"I had Doreah sew it specially for you," she told him, wounded. "These are garments fit for a khal."

"I am the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, not some grass-stained savage with bells in his hair," Viserys spat back at her. He grabbed her arm. "You forget yourself, slut. Do you think that big belly will protect you if you wake the dragon?"

His fingers dug into her arm painfully and for an instant Dany felt like a child again, quailing in the face of his rage. She reached out with her other hand and grabbed the first thing she touched, the belt she'd hoped to give him, a heavy chain of ornate bronze medallions. She swung it with all her strength.

It caught him full in the face. Viserys let go of her. Blood ran down his cheek where the edge of one of the medallions had sliced it open. "You are the one who forgets himself," Dany said to him. "Didn't you learn anything that day in the grass? Leave me now, before I summon my khas to drag you out."

[Minsc]

What blood did she draw there? I'm drawing a blank.

When she hit Viserys with a belt after she woke the dragon.

[devilrob6]

If Stannis ordered Mel to assassinate Renly then it's kinslaying, but there is no evidence in the text that he did. It seems he was expecting to go to battle with Renly at Dawn. Mel killed Renly so no kinslaying. Edric would have been kinslaying but Davos prevented that. So he is no kinslayer (and neither is Dany). If he's doomed, it is not because of Kinslaying, but because he's in a war and has a lot of enemies.

Also there is no social stigma on him for kinslaying because nobody thinks he killed Renly, except for Brienne.

[Draco_Dracul]

When she hit Viserys with a belt after she woke the dragon.

Well then she should have died there.\devilrob6, on 06 Nov 2013 - 5:23 PM, said:

Also there is no social stigma on him for kinslaying because nobody thinks he killed Renly, except for Brienne.

While they don't think he killed him directly, I think most believe that Stannis had Renly killed.

[Kungsmurfen]

I don't believe anyone is cursed, Vctarion is just superstitious. If there's anything people just hate kinslayers but since no one knows Stannis as a kin slayer that shouldn't affect him much.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

I always imagined that Mel didn't kill Renly herself, but rather provided Stannis with the medium (is this the right word? "means" sounds too simple :D ) for doing the deed.

[Mad Monkey]

If Stannis ordered Mel to assassinate Renly then it's kinslaying, but there is no evidence in the text that he did. It seems he was expecting to go to battle with Renly at Dawn. Mel killed Renly so no kinslaying. Edric would have been kinslaying but Davos prevented that. So he is no kinslayer (and neither is Dany). If he's doomed, it is not because of Kinslaying, but because he's in a war and has a lot of enemies.

Also there is no social stigma on him for kinslaying because nobody thinks he killed Renly, except for Brienne.

Loras thinks he's a kinslayer too, right? As did Catelyn -- she is the one who thought that the shadow assassin resembled Stannis. And people know that Stannis has a shadowbinder in his employ; Varys reports to the council that he imported one from Asshai. I'm actually surprised that more people haven't drawn this conclusion in the story though; Stannis was the main beneficiary of Renly's death and it's fairly common knowledge among the political elite that he does have access to shadow magic. We as readers know not to jump to this conclusion but the characters shouldn't.