Who is the best military commander in fire and ice?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

you're talking about the dothraki i assume , well the dothraki follow strength in battle and women in general don't traditionally have that kind of strength ,if dany was more like the maid of tarth I'd wager more would follow her and even then some remained with her

and you can't really take this as a rule , men followed women into battle before (aegon's sisters and nymeria ) although i think nym was more of political leader than warrior

If they really think she's God because of the dragons, none of that should matter.

I don't think it was just the Dothraki.

A few examples in 1000s of years of relatively constant warfare doesn't support a case where there is no disadvantage

Anyway all your doing is giving an explanation of why its a disadvantage, it's still a disadvantage after the reasons are addressed

[Lord Ronin]

Tywin

Robb

Stannis

Tarly

[Nyrhex]

Stannis. Hands down.

Has experiance in defending against a siege, setting up a siege, assulting a fortified position, amphibious warfare, naval combat, combined arms, all cavalry and all infantry (Deepwood Motte 2, Battle of the Ice?) forces, pursuit, ambush, using a fient, retreat (the hardest manuever), logistics, inserting dicipline, working with different types of troops (Crownlanders, Stormlanders, Reachmen, Northerners, Pirates, Wildlings, Sellswords, Clansmen...), winter warfare, night combat...

He's the best commander for the job. Pretty much any job.

[N/A]

Stannis. Hands down.

Has experiance in defending against a siege, setting up a siege, assulting a fortified position, amphibious warfare, naval combat, combined arms, all cavalry and all infantry (Deepwood Motte 2, Battle of the Ice?) forces, pursuit, ambush, using a fient, retreat (the hardest manuever), logistics, inserting dicipline, working with different types of troops (Crownlanders, Stormlanders, Reachmen, Northerners, Pirates, Wildlings, Sellswords, Clansmen...), winter warfare, night combat...

He's the best commander for the job. Pretty much any job.

Are the batteries included :p

[Arya kiddin']

Only military prowess right?

Stannis ~> Robb (slightly) > Randyll >>>>........................................................................>>>> Tywin. :)

[The Fallen]

` It's always difficult to determine who's the best. So I'll keep it to the battles that have happened during the novels.

Every list must start with the 'Young Wolf', Robb Stark. He was untested and unproven, but ended up defying expectations. He ended undefeated. He was a prodigy. He was outnumbered and was facing men a lot more experienced than he. But he proved to be brilliant. He set up the Lannisters, all the while Tywin thought he was setting up the Young Wolf. He dictated how and when the battles would be fought. He was never predictable. Had it not been for Edmure losing sight of the bigger picture, the Lannisters would have been dealt a crushing blow, or at best would've had to sue for peace. I also want to dispel the myth that the Blackfish should get the credit for Robb's victories. Robb came up with the idea to split his army before the Blackfish joined him. And the Blackfish has never been a commander. His counsel proved wise, but Robb came up with the ideas and made the final decisions. A smart commander listens to his men.

Stannis knows what he's doing. He's experienced and proven. He's not brilliant like the 'Young Wolf', but then again, there was only one Robb. There was a reason that Tywin was worried most about Stannis. Both he and Robb are great leaders on the battlefield. They can both see advantages and disadvantages. And Stannis is nit afraid to listen to counsel and change plans, as evidenced by his following the advice of Jon Snow and not attacking the Dreadfort.

I'm no Tywin fan, but he was a good commander. Completely overrated by the fandom. He's disciplined, as are his men, and he's experienced. However, Robb outwitted him at every turn. When Tywin wanted Robb to go right, Robb went left. When Tywin wanted Robb to come to Harrenhal, Robb went west, forcing Tywin to chase after him, a move that would have resulted in a devastating blow to House Lannister's power and influence. Alas, Tywin was needed to serve as Tyrion's nemesis and Robb had to die so that GRRM could prove a point. Lastly, we have to give him credit for the Blackwater, although I'm not convinced he had much to do with the victory. It sounded more like a Tyrell production.

Tarly is a good soldier. Seems like he's good at taking orders. He's still unproven, to an extent.

[Petyr Patter]

I've got to go with Robb. Not only did he never lose a battle, he won them against greater foes and numbers. He basically smashed two armies: Jaime Lannister's at Riverrun and Stefford Lannister's at Oxcross, both times he was outnumbered. His plan to retake Moat Caitlin was also pretty good, and indeed the irregular crannogmen basically reduced the garrison to nothing anyways.

[Erkan12]

1- Robb

2- Stannis

3- Randyll

4- Ned

[Riptide]

Robb came up with the idea to split his army before the Blackfish joined him. And the Blackfish has never been a commander. His counsel proved wise, but Robb came up with the ideas and made the final decisions. A smart commander listens to his men.

I'm not denying this was a good, non-BF move, but In the same conversation, Robb gives most of his army over to the ancestral enemy of House Stark, which gets him killed and his entire army destroyed in the end.

What other idea do we know Robb came up with?

I'm no Tywin fan, but he was a good commander. Completely overrated by the fandom. He's disciplined, as are his men, and he's experienced. However, Robb outwitted him at every turn. When Tywin wanted Robb to go right, Robb went left. When Tywin wanted Robb to come to Harrenhal, Robb went west, forcing Tywin to chase after him, a move that would have resulted in a devastating blow to House Lannister's power and influence. Alas, Tywin was needed to serve as Tyrion's nemesis and Robb had to die so that GRRM could prove a point. Lastly, we have to give him credit for the Blackwater, although I'm not convinced he had much to do with the victory. It sounded more like a Tyrell production.

Why on earth did Tywin take the easily defended River Road rather than the Gold Road if he was trying to return home?

[N/A]

Why on earth did Tywin take the easily defended River Road rather than the Gold Road if he was trying to return home?

because the gold road goes from kingslanding ,through the reach and ends at lanisport and the rock. (he'd have to go around the kingdom to use it).

the river road is much faster , goes directly through the golden tooth

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Stannis no doubt:

http://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/a-complete-analysis-of-stannis-baratheon-as-a-military-commander/

[Minsc]

Why on earth did Tywin take the easily defended River Road rather than the Gold Road if he was trying to return home?

Because take the Goldroad into the Westerlands Tywin would be forced to march though the neutral Reach, and Mace Tyrell might not look kindly on Tywin marching an army though his territory. Thus, opening up the possibility that the currently neutral Reach might attack Tywin's army creating a new enemy for the Lannisters to worry about.

[N/A]

Stannis no doubt:

http://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/a-complete-analysis-of-stannis-baratheon-as-a-military-commander/

thank you for linking this , i enjoined the last one :)

i gotta admit ,we're deprived from a lot of essential elements that go into judging battles in the series ,i wonder if George wanted us to take them as set blocks and bricks and not try to analyze their details (for lack of them) i mean half the time we're forced to speculate and because of those speculations we could never reach perfect agreement

[Veltigar]

thank you for linking this , i enjoined the last one :)

i gotta admit ,we're deprived from a lot of essential elements that go into judging battles in the series ,i wonder if George wanted us to take them as set blocks and bricks and not try to analyze their details (for lack of them) i mean half the time we're forced to speculate and because of those speculations we could never reach perfect agreement

It's better for him to leave out the details don't you think? Otherwise we would all complain and whine about every error he made in setting up the battle.

[James Arryn]

Robb displayed brilliance. Militarily, he has shown more than anyone else so far and no real weak spots that we know of. He's Edward IV, in the field and in the bedroom, apparently.

Ned, Stannis, Randall Tarly and Tywin displayed good command and control, resilience and relied on pretty paint by numbers strategic plans unless there are things we have not heard. To our knowledge Ned and Tarly have always been effective while Tywin and Stannis have mixed records. Tywin deserves a little extra cred as an overall campaign administrator and Stannis deserves a little extra cred for success and experience on land and at sea, and both of them won their most credible victories (that we have seen depicted) by virtue of luckily arriving on the exposed flank of an enemy at precisely the optimal moment without any apparent intent. Stannis may be about to pull off the kind of actually brilliant gameplan that would live up to his otherwise somewhat inflated rep with some, in which case I'd move him up near or to the top. All told I'd put these 4 about on par...maybe a slight not to Ned under the assumption that he demonstrated some of the traits his sons (sic) have demonstrated.

As a pure naval commander, Victarion seems extremely able and his men have excellent faith in him. We have yet to see him on land, and he possesses the handicap of being a moron. Robert is an inspirational leader in the field. His strategic plans seem to be Nelson-like, though. Summerall could be seen as brilliantly Napoleonic or simply see-ball hit-ball. It's hard to tell.

Jon Snow has shown an exceptional grasp of many non-linear aspects of command, but we really haven't seen him in the field much. Renly showed real ability for big picture strategy, logistics and timing. Jon Arryn it can be assumed was solid or better, but we just aren't told enough. Ned and Robert were his protégées, though, so that speaks very well. Tyrion's mind works as well in the field as anywhere, and is innovative, but he is handicapped by a shaky ability to maintain respect and control; kind of the anti-Ned/Stannis type. Jorah Mormont and Ser Barristan are wise veterans with unflinching courage and an ability to command. Jorah is probably a bit better at unconventional thinking, Selmy the better leader of men. Garlan and Loras Tyrell both would seem to have real potential. Asha might be able to translate her unit command skill to a bigger stage, as might Adam Marbrand, Forley Prester and Roose Bolton.

Brynden Tully is really hard to gauge because he could rank anywhere. Seems to be brilliant, but has no actual examples of direct leadership that I know of. I will leave him off, along with Jon Arryn because both could be 1-10, and I don't have a real feel for where makes more sense.

The two commanders left standing who I feel have potential to be better than anyone left:

1) Jaime Lannister. Has already shown a capacity for lightning attacks, for the basics of siege craft and grunt work of long campaigning. Commands respect from men in the field at a high level. Is at home with soldiers. Recently has shown an ability to utilize oblique methods and his one major flaw...lack of caution/recklessness seems to be a thing if the past. Could be great. Might be apathetic, though, which might call into question his staying power.

2) Jon Connington. Was already considered a dangerous commander decades ago, and like Jaime seems to have polished off his one (arguable) weak spot. Showed exceptional coursge and command and control at the Bells, and has lead a successful invasion of the Stormlands.

Is the first man in history we know of to militarily conquer Storm's End.

Is widely respected as a commander; Aerys, Tywin and Kevan Lannister all considered him notable, Varys chose him as the leader for their enterprise, and he rose quickly through the ranks of the feared and respected Golden Company. His years in hiding show amazing patience, dedication and flexibility. Incredibly mission oriented. Also like Jaime, there are long-term concerns, though he certainly isn't apathetic.

If I could choose anyone, my top 10 would go:

1) Robb Stark

2) Jon Connington

3) Ned Stark

4) Robert Baratheon

5) Jaime Lannister

6) Stannis Baratheon

7) Randall Tarly

8) Tywin Lannister

9) Jon Snow

10) Tyrion Lannister

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

thank you for linking this , i enjoined the last one :)

i gotta admit ,we're deprived from a lot of essential elements that go into judging battles in the series ,i wonder if George wanted us to take them as set blocks and bricks and not try to analyze their details (for lack of them) i mean half the time we're forced to speculate and because of those speculations we could never reach perfect agreement

the author has a numer of essays regarding other characters as commanders (Robb, jaime, Tywin, dany)

all of them are very good essays.

[Lord Ronin]

Hey...where is the Blackfish in this discussion?

[Nictarion]

I wasnt trying to be condescending. My bad if I came off as such.

Implying someone can't "grasp" something, is very condescending. I'm not really sure how you didn't realize you were be condescending.

And if you think the battle for the wall is the most impressive victory in the story, we will have to just disagree. I thought Robb's victories, and the plan to take Meereen by sneaking through the sewers was more impressive.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Its really not. The wildlings are untrained, undisciplined, and poorly armed. These factors have to be accounted for. Stannis' one great victory was Fair Island.

Those untrained wildings cost the norths armys many lifes not so long ago. Even some lord of winterfell got himself killed fighting them. I dont remember witch one.

Bottom line: If the north needed its full power a cuple of times to stop the wildings, and some of their ranks died in battle in the past, Stannis ending an invasion with 1k mem is a HUGE achievment!!!!

[MindLikeWarp]

I say Stannis for all the reasons stated.