Dothraki Weaponcraft

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Source?

Where does it say Westerosi yew longbows have greater range/quality?

JonCon, the chapter where he attacks Griffin's Roost. He makes specific note of his archers and their equipment.

[Sansa_Stark]

JonCon, the chapter where he attacks Griffin's Roost. He makes specific note of his archers and their equipment.

What about Jorah Mormont's comment. He said Dothraki archer's outrange the Westeros ones.

"A third of Balaq's men used crossbows, another third the double-curved and horn and sinew bows of the east."

I don't think this specifically means Dothraki bows.

"They are better riders than any knight, utterly fearless, and their bows outrange ours."

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What about Jorah Mormont's comment. He said Dothraki archer's outrange the Westeros ones.

"A third of Balaq's men used crossbows, another third the double-curved and horn and sinew bows of the east."

I don't think this specifically means Dothraki bows.

"They are better riders than any knight, utterly fearless, and their bows outrange ours."

Might be that the Dothraki use other bows than "the east" in general, despite the identical description, but that's a pretty slim chance.

And Jorah Mormont is blowing sugar up Dany's arse. He's been shown to take leave of his senses all the time when her chances of conquering Westeros come up. I'll take JonCon's assessment during an actual combat situation above his during an empy conversation all the time.

[Sansa_Stark]

Might be that the Dothraki use other bows than "the east" in general, despite the identical description, but that's a pretty slim chance.

And Jorah Mormont is blowing sugar up Dany's arse. He's been shown to take leave of his senses all the time when her chances of conquering Westeros come up. I'll take JonCon's assessment during an actual combat situation above his during an empy conversation all the time.

Well where was the description of the Dothraki bows written?

I don't know if Jorah was being that dishonest to Dany. He did say that the Dothraki couldn't take the weakest castle in Westeros because they hate siegecraft.

For some reason, I think 40,000 men is enough to take a castle, if they were Westerosi.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well where was the description of the Dothraki bows written?

I don't know if Jorah was being that dishonest to Dany. He did say that the Dothraki couldn't take the weakest castle in Westeros because they hate siegecraft.

For some reason, I think 40,000 men is enough to take a castle, if they were Westerosi.

Please don't pin me on the description of the Dothraki bows, I don't remember the spot and have no time to search for it.

Jorah was being dishonest to himself and even more dishonest to Dany (because she lacks the knowledge to interpret his statements correctly). The passage you refer to (I believe it's the one, all from memory) reads basically: "When I was not yet in love with you, I wouldn't give the Dothraki a chance in hell. Now, if Robert reacts as dumb as dumb gets (unlikely), and if Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon don't give him any council (no chance in hell) and if they all give up and voluntarily lose their heads (pah) after a single battle (any war in Westeros won in a single battle, ever?), might be the Dothraki stand a tiny little chance (of not being wiped out completely)." That isn't a honest assessment, that's wishful thinking. But Dany doesn't pick up the undertones. How could she? She lacks the knowledge to judge it.

[Sansa_Stark]

Please don't pin me on the description of the Dothraki bows, I don't remember the spot and have no time to search for it.

Jorah was being dishonest to himself and even more dishonest to Dany (because she lacks the knowledge to interpret his statements correctly). The passage you refer to (I believe it's the one, all from memory) reads basically: "When I was not yet in love with you, I wouldn't give the Dothraki a chance in hell. Now, if Robert reacts as dumb as dumb gets (unlikely), and if Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon don't give him any council (no chance in hell) and if they all give up and voluntarily lose their heads (pah) after a single battle (any war in Westeros won in a single battle, ever?), might be the Dothraki stand a tiny little chance (of not being wiped out completely)." That isn't a honest assessment, that's wishful thinking. But Dany doesn't pick up the undertones. How could she? She lacks the knowledge to judge it.

Oh sorry, I wasn't trying to be mean about or anything.

I get what you are saying, and it is wishful thinking on Jorah's part, because of the laughable circumstances that would need to happen for Khal Drogo to win...

But I do think it could be used as an accurate description of Dothraki martial skill, two parts of it, about not being able to take the weakest castle, and Dothraki in open batte

The part of open battle and Jorah saying 40000 dothraki could take on Rhaegar's 40000.

I mean, I will admit, the Dothraki couldn't take over westeros though. And its just my opinion.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No need to apologize.

Even the part about open battle is very, very questionable. Jorah doesn't give them a good chance, just a chance. And that is before he experiences the Dothraki in combat (and their awful record there).

[Mithras]

It seems that GRRM got it right back in the days of AGoT but in the later books, he contradicted with himself. Note that he creates various bow materials which we cannot compare with the real-world bows. But there is a false myth going on about longbows having a greater range than composite bows and GRRM fell to it.

Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire. Dragonbone bows are greatly prized by the Dothraki, and small wonder. An archer so armed can outrange any wooden bow.

Dragonbone bows are worthy of khals but still there should be many of them.

Ser Jorah’s face grew thoughtful as their horses trod together down the godsway. “When I first went into exile, I looked at the Dothraki and saw half-naked barbarians, as wild as their horses. If you had asked me then, Princess, I should have told you that a thousand good knights would have no trouble putting to flight a hundred times as many Dothraki.”

“But if I asked you now?”

“Now,” the knight said, “I am less certain. They are better riders than any knight, utterly fearless, and their bows outrange ours. In the Seven Kingdoms, most archers fight on foot, from behind a shieldwall or a barricade of sharpened stakes. The Dothraki fire from horseback, charging or retreating, it makes no matter, they are full as deadly... and there are so many of them, my lady. Your lord husband alone counts forty thousand mounted warriors in his khalasar.”

“Is that truly so many?”

“Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident,” Ser Jorah admitted, “but of that number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field. How long do you imagine such a rabble would stand against the charge of forty thousand screamers howling for blood? How well would boiled leather jerkins and mailed shirts protect them when the arrows fall like rain?”

“Not long,” she said, “not well.”

He nodded. “Mind you, Princess, if the lords of the Seven Kingdoms have the wit the gods gave a goose, it will never come to that. The riders have no taste for siegecraft. I doubt they could take even the weakest castle in the Seven Kingdoms, but if Robert Baratheon were fool enough to give them battle...”

“Is he?” Dany asked. “A fool, I mean?”

Ser Jorah considered that for a moment. “Robert should have been born Dothraki,” he said at last. “Your khal would tell you that only a coward hides behind stone walls instead of facing his enemy with a blade in hand. The Usurper would agree. He is a strong man, brave... and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark He spat.

This is from AGoT and average Dothraki bows (which are not described AFAIR but they should be composite) should have more range than Westerosi longbows.

Later, GRRM changes his mind and give the top prize to the longbows.

Jon leaned his crutch up against a merlon and took up his longbow, bending the smooth thick Dornish yew to slip a bowstring through the notches.

The smaller horn-and-wood bows of the free folk were outranged by the great yew longbows of the Night’s Watch

When they saw her oars rising and falling, lashing the copper waters white, Kojja Mo sent her archers to the castles with their great bows of goldenheart that could send a shaft farther and truer than even Dornish yew.

“The day you make them all is the day you stop improving.” Alleras unstrung his longbow and eased it into its leather case. The bow was carved from goldenheart, a rare and fabled wood from the Summer Isles. Pate had tried to bend it once, and failed.

A third of Balaq’s men used crossbows, another third the double-curved horn-and-sinew bows of the east. Better than these were the big yew long-bows borne by the archers of Westerosi blood, and best of all were the great bows of goldenheart treasured by Black Balaq himself and his fifty Summer Islanders. Only a dragonbone bow could outrange one made of goldenheart. Whatever bow they carried, all of Balaq’s men were sharp-eyed, seasoned veterans who had proved their worth in a hundred battles, raids, and skirmishes. They proved it again at Griffin’s Roost.

In the real world, longbows have less draw-energy ratio hence less range than composite bows. They can easily be used from horseback. Longbows compensate their lack of energy by firing heavier arrows. They are basically fired without aiming unless the target is like 25 yards close.

http://www.worldarchery.org/en-us/home/disciplines/flightarchery.aspx

http://www.worldarchery.org/en-us/results/records/flightrecords/men.aspx

[E-Ro]

Any bow you fire from foot will have more range then when fired from horesback. Its simply a matter of putting more muscles in your body into use when drawing. Considering the dothraki fire while mounted they will have to get closer to the enemy to lose any shots.

We have gone over this thousands of times before, but the dothraki would get absolutely destroyed by any sort of real army that wasnt composed of slaves chained together or lamb men.

[Mithras]

Any bow you fire from foot will have more range then when fired from horesback. Its simply a matter of putting more muscles in your body into use when drawing.

This makes no sense at all. The muscles you use to stretch the bow has nothing to do with being on foot. It is all about your arms. Being on foot only helps you to fire faster and does not require superior riding skills necessary to fire rom horseback.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

This makes no sense at all. The muscles you use to stretch the bow has nothing to do with being on foot. It is all about your arms. Being on foot only helps you to fire faster and does not require superior riding skills necessary to fire rom horseback.

The muscles needed to draw a bow start in the arms, lead down to the small of the back and are assisted by the legwork. Legwork that isn't possible ahorse.

Furthermore, composite bows have another problem. Their draw weight may be equal to longbows when fully drawn, but the shorter arms of the composite bow can't keep it up all the way till the arrow leaves the string, resulting in less energy for the arrow.

The part about heavier arrows for the longbows ties into that as well. A heavier arrow is a thicker, stiffer arrow. Arrows waste a lot of energy flabbing around, a stiffer arrow wastes way less energy, putting it where it does some good.

[E-Ro]

This makes no sense at all. The muscles you use to stretch the bow has nothing to do with being on foot. It is all about your arms. Being on foot only helps you to fire faster and does not require superior riding skills necessary to fire rom horseback.

lol, no dude, see bright blue eyes post. IF you were firing a bow with arm strength your draw weight would decrease SIGNIFICANTLY.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Yeah, the idea that you can slash or pierce plate with a sword is a very common and annoying trope. It takes blunt force trauma or going for a gap in the armor to kill someone in plate.

Actually, the increasing use of plate armor in the 14th and 15th century, led to new designs in swords, which were used to thrust at the weak points of the armor. These swords were basically ONLY used to thrust, not to cut.

Oakeshott XV - XVIII would be those types of swords.

XV: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxv.html

But battle axes and warhammers proved far more efficient against full plate. These usually had a spike on the opposite side of the blade/hammerhead, which was VERY effective against plate and could cause wounds up to a few centimeters.

The warhammer was especially effective, since a strong blow could lead to broken bones, cracked rips etc.

But since plate armored knights, usually fought from horseback, a very good strategy used by the swiss, was to knock them off the horse with a 2h sword and finish them off with a dagger.

ot: I just read a post in a weapon forum from a guy claiming, that katanas wouuld have easily been able to CUT through plate armor and apparently he wrote a paper about katanas in college. What a complete moron....

[E-Ro]

Actually, the increasing use of plate armor in the 14th and 15th century, led to new designs in swords, which were used to thrust at the weak points of the armor. These swords were basically ONLY used to thrust, not to cut.

Oakeshott XV - XVIII would be those types of swords.

XV: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxv.html

Yeah I know of these thrusting only swords. They were very popular. But the key part of your post is where you said "weak points." Weak points in the armor being any part of it not covered by plate, such as the back of the knees, the armpits, or visor. You simply cannot thrust or slash through plate. You would damage your blade.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Yeah I know of these thrusting only swords. They were very popular. But the key part of your post is where you said "weak points." Weak points in the armor being any part of it not covered by plate, such as the back of the knees, the armpits, or visor. You simply cannot thrust or slash through plate. You would damage your blade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

at 2:15

They use a sword to pierce mail, the sword is still ok after, it pierced, but not even an inch. So you can pierce through full plate with a sword, it just wouldn't hurt much with the underlying armor.

[Sansa_Stark]

Is it possible to slash through helmet?

[E-Ro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

at 2:15

They use a sword to pierce mail, the sword is still ok after, it pierced, but not even an inch. So you can pierce through full plate with a sword, it just wouldn't hurt much with the underlying armor.

Well, that's against a target standing still, and with plenty of time to wind up. Not indicative at all of something that would happen on a battlefield. Whats more, I would call into question the accuracy of the material they are using. The amount of strength needed to actually pierce metal armor should be more then anything a human is capable of.

[E-Ro]

Here, this is the amount of force you would have to generate to get past plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCtV_M1n38c

Feel free to mute the annoying music, you just need to see the video, the sound doesnt help.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Is it possible to slash through helmet?

Nope. The helmet was the strongest part of the armor. The steelplate on other body parts was not as strong.

[A bowl of brown]

Are we sure Arakhs are originally Dothraki? Doesn't the presence of a VS one suggest they existed predoom which, correct me if I'm wrong happened about the time the Dothraki showed up.