Sansa Stark

[Newstar]

So I'd like to know where the hell have you met all these young prodigies, and I am not being mocking or sarcastic at all.

The Arya-like girls I knew were in the gifted program...not surprisingly, given that Arya, unlike Sansa, fits the classic profile of the gifted child in many ways. :D

(Sansa's more the "bright" child: the attentive, diligent, conscientious student.)

If I were in the middle of the Mycah incident, I would behave exactly like Arya - even though I am aware it's not a wise course of action by any means. I doubt that any of us here have been child soldiers (though there are people in real life who have/are!), but many can probably relate to a girl who is rebellious, doesn't fit with their assigned role in society and with traditional gender roles, feels both angry and insecure because of it. Or with someone who is full of anger because of the injustice they witnessed and losses they've suffered, and wants to take up action and fight, but comes to find out that they are, realistically, pretty helpless on their own in the face of the numerous and strong bad guys. For instance, I can relate easily to Arya's anger and impulsiveness - there have been many times when I've been overcome with anger at some perceived injustice and done something impulsive and burned my bridges, and I was often aware even while I was doing that it wasn't the wise thing to do, but I couldn't help it. And then other times I was aware I had to control myself, even if it made me feel 'like a mouse'.

Agreed. Actually, Arya's fury at injustice and her anger at her own powerlessness were the things that first drew me to her.

[jon stark I]

What accusations? LOL I was "bashing" Arya by pointing out that she is not a genius, like another poster claimed? Jesus, really? :bang: This is really silly. Arya is one of my favorite characters, as a matter of fact. I like her and Sansa about the same. If you like Arya because you believe that she is a 'genius' who's never wrong and has no flaws, and see it as "bashing" when someone points out that she's an impulsive child who often leaps before she looks, rather than some sort of superhuman and incredibly wise planner, and if you think it's bashing to point out the things she did textually, then maybe you don't actually like her, the way she actually is in the books?

What do I want her to do? What the heck are you talking about? I'm not the one who wants her to be a 'genius', some sort of a ridiculous, unrealistic Mary Sue type character.

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

And they haven't. So what? That's not my logic, that's a fact. A character, especially a child who's still developing and whose arc is nowhere near finished, doesn't have to be 'uncovering plots about their families' and doing superhero feats to save the kingdom, or whatever the previous poster imagined Arya doing, to be an interesting and compelling.

Don't refer to me as another poster :cool4: Well I didn't meant that Arya was Einstein guys.And I didn't say Arya was god either everyone is capable of mistakes even geniuses.

[Gwydden]

The Arya-like girls I knew were in the gifted program...not surprisingly, given that Arya, unlike Sansa, fits the classic profile of the gifted child in many ways. :D

All right. Although I can't help but wonder why Martin had to get into child protagonists at all. Children are messy, and I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I believe seeing the character development of an adult, with an initially more grounded personality and solid set of beliefs (see Jaime) is far better. I never liked any of the Stark children, I just prefer Sansa, and I actually liked Robb in the show more than in the books. Because he was older in the former, most likely.

[Annara Snow]

Don't refer to me as another poster :cool4: Well I didn't meant that Arya was Einstein guys.And I didn't say Arya was god either everyone is capable of mistakes even geniuses.

Sorry, I couldn't remember your username and I didn't feel like going back a few pages when I was replying. :)

Thanks for clarifying your views. I think the word 'genius's is thrown around too often. I'm not sure anyone in ASOIAF is a genius, even though there are people who are gifted in some ways or other.

[jon stark I]

All right. Although I can't help but wonder why Martin had to get into child protagonists at all. Children are messy, and I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I believe seeing the character development of an adult, with an initially more grounded personality and solid set of beliefs (see Jaime) is far better. I never liked any of the Stark children, I just prefer Sansa, and I actually liked Robb in the show more than in the books. Because he was older in the former, most likely.

Could you explain Jaime thing a little bit to me?

[jon stark I]

Sorry, I couldn't remember your username and I didn't feel like going back a few pages when I was replying. :)

Thanks for clarifying your views. I think the word 'genius's is thrown around too often. I'm not sure anyone in ASOIAF is a genius, even though there are people who are gifted in some ways or other.

Well genius may be a little too much but looking how she survived it all I think it fits.I mean any other child even Jon would have revealed himself to Roose bbut she didn't, she hide herself very well, she made mistakes like every character but she managed to do the impossiible always.I mean just looking at Weasel soup and her latest job in Bravos or finishing off those scumbags in the inn I think she is very gifted maybe not agenius but comparing to all others she is above them thats for sure.(to me at least I don't know maybe I am not the best judge for this argument)

[Gwydden]

Could you explain Jaime thing a little bit to me?

What Jaime thing?

[jon stark I]

What Jaime thing?

You gave Jaime for an example of solid beliefs and grounded personality right?Jaime has no beliefs and he started developing a personlaity in the last two books.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I disagree. I think both girls are real-life like characters. True, none of us has lived through the things Arya has, but neither did we live through the things Sansa has, since we live in a different kind of society. But I think people can still easily relate to either or both of them.

I don't see Arya as the typical warrior-girl from fantasy books any more than I see Sansa as a Disney princess. There's nothing glamorous about Arya;s arc, she's not a superhero-type character who can do anything and beat anyone all along with her sword and achieve all her goals - although I get the impression that a lot of fans would like to see her as this kind of character. I find her actually pretty easy to relate to. In the first book, I related to her a lot more than Sansa; later on I started finding Sansa more relatable, so I can relate to them both. If I were in the middle of the Mycah incident, I would behave exactly a wise course of action by any means. I doubt that any of us here have been child soldiers (though there are people in real life who have/are!), but many can probably relate to a girl who is rebellious, doesn't fit with their assigned role in society and with traditional gender roles, feels both angry and insecure because of it. Or with someone who is full of anger because of the injustice they witnessed and losses they've suffered, and wants to take up action and fight, but comes to find out that they are, realistically, pretty helpless on their own in the face of the numerous and strong bad guys. For instance, I can relate easily to Arya's anger and impulsiveness - there have been many times when I've been overcome with anger at some perceived injustice and done something impulsive and burned my bridges, and I was often aware even while I was doing that it wasn't the wise thing to do, but I couldn't help it. And then other times I was aware I had to control myself, even if it made me feel 'like a mouse'.

Oh, I agree with you. The question was more about the vision that Arya is clearly the superior sister and a genius in every possible way. I think Arya's journey, not her personality, is a harder thing to find. I can relate in a lot of ways with Arya, especially since I have made the rash decisions and the impulsive decisions she has, and I don't find that a genius strategy. I do appreciate andbrelatebto Arya's mental journey, but Sansa's situation makes more sense to me, you know? Like the poster that says she has met children like Arya all the time, I haven't. And unlike her/him, I have a lot of Sansa friends and In a rough comparison, I've been a Sansa type at some pont(Naive, Idealistic) and I'm more than satisfied with my current life, and I've seen people achieve greatness being a Sansa-like person. That said, I do identify with Arya's non-conformity, her rebellious attitude to the rules of her society and her survival instict. But I don't think that's a sign I'm a genius or that she is. And I stand by the point that people are more keen to like a character like Arya because she's more active, in the sense that she's good with a sword, she's stronger physically. And people like that kind of character more, which I find harder to find than people with Sansa's habilities considering the context she lives in. I've had Sgrima classes and Muay Thay, but then again, I'm a post-modern male. But again, that's my point of view. I do agree with pretty much everything you said.

[Gwydden]

You gave Jaime for an example of solid beliefs and grounded personality right?Jaime has no beliefs and he started developing a personlaity in the last two books.

Not exactly. What I meant is that children and teenagers don't have solid beliefs or a grounded personality, and how they are and what the believe in changes constantly until they reach a certain age. We expect them to change as they grow up. It's a given. It usually takes something drastic for an adult to really change, and Jaime is the proof of that. Also, adults have a better grasp of abstract terms and subjective thinking. So I find the character development of older characters more fascinating than that of children.

[Queen Alienor]

Both Arya and Sansa are pretty clever... and they both come a long way since the first book. I think that if we did not have the backstory and would just start reading with AFFC/ADWD (I do realize that nobody does that, to complicated story and such) many people would think clever, caring Sansa more likeable than assassine Arya, just like in the first book wild Arya comes of more likeable than ladylike, boring Sansa. I don't know if what I'm trying to say comes across right, but the idea just came up :)

[jon stark I]

My cousin started with the last two book because we were in vacation and those two were the only ones I took.He skipped nearly all Dany and Sansa chapters I had no influence.

[Newstar]

Both Arya and Sansa are pretty clever... and they both come a long way since the first book. I think that if we did not have the backstory and would just start reading with AFFC/ADWD (I do realize that nobody does that, to complicated story and such) many people would think clever, caring Sansa more likeable than assassine Arya, just like in the first book wild Arya comes of more likeable than ladylike, boring Sansa. I don't know if what I'm trying to say comes across right, but the idea just came up :)

Since Sansa was written to be so unlikable in the first book, and Arya was written to be so adorable in the first book, I once wondered if GRRM was pulling a deliberate bait and switch, where he would set up the sisters in one position and then slowly reverse our sympathies by transforming Arya into a bloodthirsty assassin and showing Sansa to be more sympathetic as the books progressed, switching them by the end so that Arya is a horrifying monster and Sansa is the hero. I no longer think that's where he's heading, though I suppose anything's possible. (I used to think the same thing of Tyrion--the goal was to make him sympathetic and endearing in the first book and then transform him into a supervillain--but I realized on reread that Tyrion was never all that sympathetic to begin with.)

As for the readability of Sansa chapters, I don't know where GRRM intended her to fall on the intelligence scale, but I find reading her chapters a bit of a chore sometimes, and I've found that reading POVs--not so much in ASOIAF, but in general--of highly intelligent characters is far easier and more engaging than reading POVs of less intelligent characters. It's like going from two dimensions to three. (...All other things being equal, of course.)

[Woman of War]

Both Arya and Sansa are pretty clever... and they both come a long way since the first book. I think that if we did not have the backstory and would just start reading with AFFC/ADWD (I do realize that nobody does that, to complicated story and such) many people would think clever, caring Sansa more likeable than assassine Arya, just like in the first book wild Arya comes of more likeable than ladylike, boring Sansa. I don't know if what I'm trying to say comes across right, but the idea just came up :)

Hmm, this is a very good point.

I agree that Arya's story would appear outright crazy without the background knowledge, I might pity her but could hardly relate to her. But I would still complain about the lack of creativity from Sansa's side, the lack of determination to take her fate into her own hands. I would respect the character for trying even if she failed.

Sansa might appear caring but clever? She had her most clever moments when she considered to kill Joffrey, even at the cost of her own lfe, when she saved Dontos and tried to send Joffrey into the thick of battle. All that has happened a long time ago.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

My cousin started with the last two book because we were in vacation and those two were the only ones I took.He skipped nearly all Dany and Sansa chapters I had no influence.

That's sad. Both characters are essential to understand the books, especially Sansa where we see Kl for most of the first three books, and the Vale after. Dany is important to understand her quest and I might dare say she's the level of Jon Snow as in must-reads, even if you don't like her. How the hell he understands Dany's and Westeros's threat of the dragons, the upcoming Dance of Dragons?

[jon stark I]

That's sad. Both characters are essential to understand the books, especially Sansa where we see Kl for most of the first three books, and the Vale after. Dany is important to understand her quest and I might dare say she's the level of Jon Snow as in must-reads, even if you don't like her. How the hell he understands Dany's and Westeros's threat of the dragons, the upcoming Dance of Dragons?

Well I said nothing to him because once I start talking it is like we are going to spoiler city :cool4: He wasn't a huge fan (in the begining) and he read Cersi and Jaime but he dais Dany and Sansa related chpters were boring.He is in his third reread of the whole seies he read them eventually.

[Elaena Targaryen]

And I stand by the point that people are more keen to like a character like Arya because she's more active, in the sense that she's good with a sword, she's stronger physically. And people like that kind of character more,

First point is she's not good with a sword or stronger physically, the first I kind of understand the misconception but the latter is silly.

But really this reads like you are saying that people like the female character because she behaves like a male and displays male characteristics and I'm sorry but I don't feel that's Martin's intention or what most readers enjoy, Arya is way more nuanced than that.

Both Arya and Sansa are pretty clever... and they both come a long way since the first book. I think that if we did not have the backstory and would just start reading with AFFC/ADWD (I do realize that nobody does that, to complicated story and such) many people would think clever, caring Sansa more likeable than assassine Arya, just like in the first book wild Arya comes of more likeable than ladylike, boring Sansa. I don't know if what I'm trying to say comes across right, but the idea just came up :)

I think Martin did this intentionally in ACoK and ASoS but Sansa in AFfC it looks like she could take a darker turn so I can't wait to see what happens next!

[Queen Alienor]

Hmm, this is a very good point.

I agree that Arya's story would appear outright crazy without the background knowledge, I might pity her but could hardly relate to her. But I would still complain about the lack of creativity from Sansa's side, the lack of determination to take her fate into her own hands. I would respect the character for trying even if she failed.

Sansa might appear caring but clever? She had her most clever moments when she considered to kill Joffrey, even at the cost of her own lfe, when she saved Dontos and tried to send Joffrey into the thick of battle. All that has happened a long time ago.

Well, I'm not sure wether I would have realized that Lyn Corbray is in LF's pay as quickly as Sansa did, and that she is able to basically "run" the Vale shows some brains, too, I think.

[Dornishpenguin]

In my opinion, the key difference between Sansa and Arya in the first book wasn't a matter of naivety or intelligence. It was all about pleasing others. In one of her POV's, Cat considers how Sansa was so eager to please as a young girl. Sansa wanted to fit into high society and she loved being complimented and her gifts acknowledged. She was trying to impress who she thought were her superiors- her entire life, she was raised to be a perfect Southron lady and to emulate their ideals. The patriarchal system rewarded her for her beliefs (at least in the beginning) so she did not think to question it.

In contrast, Arya grew up overshadowed by her older sister. and was not rewarded as much by the system. She was the average looking child who was not particularly talented in the womanly crafts so she was not as used to praise. As a result, she became disenchanted by the beliefs Sansa had, and much more able to see past others in the beginning.

I personally think that Sansa's journey has to do a lot with learning that pleasing others at the extent of losing yourself is worthless. One of the things that struck me when rereading her wedding chapter is when she refuses to kneel for Tyrion, she thinks something like "No one seems to care what I think, so why should I care for them?". Sansa is the character that buys into the system the most at the beginning, but ends up becoming the POV character most abused by it.

Also, just my thoughts on the Sansa and Arya wouldn't survive in each others shoes idea- they both would have had the cards stacked against them in the others scenario. Even if Sansa had been able to escape the city with the NW, she was still an obviously beautiful girl with a developing body. Its true that little boys are assaulted as well, but a pretty young girl alone with a group of men in a warzone has much worse odds. Also, Joffrey hated Arya even more than he did Sansa- if he didn't have her killed, she'd have likely been tormented much more frequently.

[Annara Snow]

A couple of things I forgot to comment on:

No, definitively not. But I think he kind of expected her to do her duty. It's not something I approve, but Westeros is a completly different world. In Westeros, a Lollys Stokeworth (I think that's the name) gets gangraped and everybody laughs about it and more or less puts the blame on her. In Westeros, Cersei Lannister thinks that most Septas probably prayed for a good rape. I don't think that's good, really not, but we can't think the characters in Westeros will applie our moral standards.

As Winter's Knight pointed out, this is not true. Rape is considered a crime and "rapers" are punished (sadly, a lot of them seem to end up at the Wall, but that;s the case with all the criminals, including murderers and traitors or 'traitors'). I don't remember anyone saying that Lollys was herself to blame for getting gang-raped - especially since everyone knew it was Joffrey's fault, he was the one Tyrion openly blamed (and the others probably thought the same but couldn't speak it aloud) and while they don't have our contemporary sensitivity to rape victims, they would've surely punished the rapists if they had any idea who they were - they didn't punish the High Septon's murderers, either, and nobody even seemed to know where Tyrek was. And nobody laughed about it, other than, Shae*.

Cersei thinking that Septas 'prayed for a good rape' just shows how crass and devoid of empathy Cersei is - it doesn't tell you what's legally or morally acceptable in the society as a whole, any more than people who make rape jokes today are the proof that rape is OK in our society. Cersei is also a person who has children murdered and gives people to Qyburn to torture and 'experiment' on, and she's hardly the standard of ethical attitudes in Westeros. She shows a very different attitude towards rape when she's thinking about her own abuse by Robert; but she feels little empathy for others in the same situation (or potentially the same situation), unless they're her daughter. She relates to Baelor's beautiful sisters and feels sorry for them because she can imagine herself as them, but not to the Septas, who are, in her mind, old, ugly virgins, unlike herself. You'l hear people today make horrible jokes about "ugly" women who presumably don't get sex, so they supposedly must be happy to be raped. Yet they are hardly exemplary of the entire society.

Marital rape may not be illegal in Westeros, but it doesn't mean that it is ethically acceptable to everyone. People may not have the same views on sexual consent and women may be generally expected to 'do their duty', but that doesn't mean that everyone is fine with husbands forcing themselves on the wives who refuse to 'do their duty'. Jaime certainly thought that the knights of the Kingsguard should have protected queen Rhaella from being raped by her husband, and the reply that they are not supposed to seemed to have more to the fact that her husband was the king, than the fact that he was her husband. And this was clearly one of the things that made Jaime conflicted and disillusioned with his duty as a Kingsguard knight.

* I don't think that Shae's reaction is normal and common for people in Westeros. She dismissed Lollys's suffering claiming that rape is not a big deal, "All they did was fuck her". This may be seen as her general lack of empathy, similar to Cersei, and there is some of that since Shae is not a compassionate person, but I think it may also be due to something else in her case. Shae was sexually abused by her father, but unlike Cersei, Shae makes light of her own sexual abuse as well, claiming that she ran away from home not so much because of her father sexually abusing her, but because he made her work at the kitchen. She seems to have adopted the "All he did was fuck me, it's not that bad" attitude, probably as a coping strategy, and she doesn't seem to want to see herself as a victim; and she seems to have become used to seeing sex as something that's just not important - it doesn't matter if someone 'just fucks' you - and as something perfunctory she could use to get ahead in the world and get what she wants, without feeling anything emotional about it. When Lollys acts like a traumatized victim, she reacts with contempt.

Hey, Sansa types exist in real life, too, just as Arya types do, and I've known a few (even though I wasn't friends with them by and large); it's just that I find the latter far more relatable than the former, for reasons I explained. Of course, it kind of amuses me that so many posters honestly believe Sansa's going to accomplish Great Things, since in my (admittedly limited and purely anecdotal) experience, the real-life Sansas never really accomplish anything of note beyond marriage and motherhood. Something about that personality type seems to preclude greatness.

What 'personality type' would that be?

And why do you think that a "real-life Sansa" in 21st century Western world would not accomplish anything except marriage and motherhood? A real-life Sansa in our world would live in completely different circumstances, have a very different upbringing and a wide set of career opportunities that a Westerosi Sansa did not. Sansa seems to be talented at least in two areas - singing (though it's hard to determine to which extent, as she does not have the option of doing it professionally, since singers are lowborn males) and social interaction. Sansa is not some backwards or limited person who refuses to have a career because she finds it easier to marry well; she does not have those career options. She's not someone who challenged the status quo from the beginning - she was completely accepting of it at first - but people who do are rare; she's more like the huge majority of highborn girls in Westeros. And it would be unfair to criticize her for not challenging the gender roles like Arya did in order to become a warrior/soldier - when Sansa had no reason to do that, since she has neither the interest nor the talent to be a warrior/soldier. Arya specifically had that interest and was not interested in pursuits that are considered more 'girly'. Both are completely OK options. Not everyone has to be the same and have the same interests. Why would Sansa have to be interested in becoming a warrior to be 'awesome'? I wouldn't want to be a soldier. I certainly appreciate what doctors do, but I never wanted to be one. Same for policemen, firemen, lawyers, etc.

In the 21st century Western society, a real-life Sansa would probably not be dreaming just of marriage and motherhood; she would be studying and looking to have a career - possibly in arts, entertainment, public relations, social services, marketing, maybe education or social sciences (psychology, for instance - she seems to be adept at dealing with psychologically damaged and unstable people) or even politics, or some other area. (Sansa showed herself to be a very skilled motivational speaker during the Blackwater battle, essentially performing queen Cersei's job!) She'd also be dating and hoping to meet the man of her dreams, marry for love and have children. And she'd be interested in fashion and beauty, she'd wear makeup and nice clothes and go to cosmetic parlors. In other words, she'd be just like the majority of women in contemporary Western society, who want to have a career as well as love, marriage and motherhood, and who are interested in "girly things" like fashion and makeup without being necessarily brainless, shallow, weak or gold-digging. There's nothing wrong with that, IMO.

In Westerosi society, career opportunities are generally limited compared to how they are in our society; and the existence of career opportunities and upbringing shape people's dreams and desires to a great extent. They're limited for men, too, though not to the same extent. Lowborn men can do a variety of menial jobs, have a farm, keep an inn, or become sellswords. Lowborn women can do some of these things as well, minus become sellswords or do some of the harder menial jobs, plus occupations such as nursemaid. (And then there's prostitution,) If someone wants to be a professional scientist or scholar, they'd have to go to the Citadel, which requires being male (or at least being able to pass as one, which Sarella may be doing) and becoming celibate and giving up the option of marriage, children and family, which many people would not be ready to do. Teaching seems to be the province of Septas, which, again, requires becoming celibate. The only professional artists seem to be singers, who are male and apparently lowborn. Men are expected to become warriors/soldiers, if they have the physical requirements. Some women have managed to become warriors/soldiers in Westerosi society, but it's very rare and extremely difficult, as Brienne's case shows (unlike in societies like the wildlings or the clansmen, where it seems much more accepted and widespread). A highborn lady would expect to be married and become the lady of the household (or queen). For someone like Sansa, who's not interested in being a warrior herself in the first place, and has shown no talents for it, the position of the lady of the household, or a queen, would understandably look pretty appealing, especially when her role model is someone like Catelyn. (Her admiration of her other early role model, Cersei, was based on a completely wrong idea of what Cersei's life, role and personality was like.) Sansa is good at social interaction, wants to be loved by people, and she would have a degree of power and authority as a lady of [insert] or queen.

However, the marriage part of it looked good to her as long as she was able to believe that it would involve mutual love and respect; as she has become aware that her romantic dreams and desires and the realities of marriages for highborn women in Westeros are two very different things, her attitude to marriage has changed drastically. I don't think she's the 'type' who would ever go for marriage - with no love - as a 'career' in order to get money and security, if she had any choice in the matter, which most women in contemporary Western society do have.