The thorns beneath the roses?

[Audrey Arryn]

Hi I've been thinking about this topic for awhile, so I decided its time to post.

This my version of the symbolic breakdown of the laurel wreath Rhaegar gave Lyanna.

So far the most popular theory is that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, eloped with her and hid during the whole war.

Evidence for Rhaegar's love for Lyanna is known through Barristan, Dany through Viserys and the HOTU (Though this is not cannon, since the woman Rhaegar said when he died could be anyone)

The main premise of this argument is that Rhaegar and Lyanna wasn't just love, I believe it goes deeper than that through textual analysis.

From Ned's dream:

"Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost."

This most logical explanation of this is that, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, this proved it. But was it just love? Is there something more to Lyanna and Rhaegar's story than just love?

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke,

The first part says, Ned stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, the flowery crown is assumed to be the symbolic point of love for Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Now observe GRRM's word usage in the remaining part of the sentence, first he uses but, which means this crown of flowers are so pretty and represent love etc, BUT there is something more to it.

....But beneath the blue petals thorns lay hidden: "Thorns" and "hidden" are the words that stick out to me, beneath the crown of flowers that represent the love Rhaegar gave to Lyanna are thorns hidden underneath, they were "sharp and cruel", "clawing at his skin".

The remainder of the dream Ned wakes up and remember's Lyanna's promise. "Promise me Ned"

In a nutshell I believe the interpretation is that Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown of roses but there were thorns hidden underneath.

We don't know the details of what happened after Lyanna was abducted but I find this very intriguing, that is thorns being hidden under a rose, and this leads me to believe R and L was not just a romantic story or maybe isn't even a romantic story to begin with. Its also odd Rhaegar would spend 1 year with a woman just for "love" whiles he has a wife and children and a child who he believed was the chosen one.

[complexphoenix]

I thought the thorns represented the tragic consequences of their love: the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, the war, the deaths of Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves, plus thousands of others. So much pain and blood and death and destruction because two people fell in love.

[Audrey Arryn]

I thought the thorns represented the tragic consequences of their love: the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, the war, the deaths of Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves, plus thousands of others. So much pain and blood and death and destruction because two people fell in love.

The crown was given to Lyanna and I believe Ned is just being used to feel the experience.

So the thorns should be represented as the pain of Lyanna rather than the pain of westeros.

ETA: The thorns only cause pain when the rose is picked. Meaning when Lyanna got the roses she got pain too.

[complexphoenix]

The crown was given to Lyanna and I believe Ned is just being used to feel the experience.

So the thorns should be represented as the pain of Lyanna rather than the pain of westeros.

ETA: The thorns only cause pain when the rose is picked. Meaning when Lyanna got the roses she got pain too.

It's symbolic. The correspondence doesn't need to be that precise.

And Lyanna did suffer personally even if it wasn't rape. Her father and eldest brother were killed, and she herself died as well, remember? All that had to hurt.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

I've started to increasingly believe that this is some sort of Queen of Thorns reference. There's too many fishy elements to the Tyrell war effort.

[Fire Eater]

I've started to increasingly believe that this is some sort of Queen of Thorns reference. There's too many fishy elements to the Tyrell war effort.

What does the QoT have to do with Jon or Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship?

I thought the thorns represented the tragic consequences of their love: the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, the war, the deaths of Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves, plus thousands of others. So much pain and blood and death and destruction because two people fell in love.

That, and the crown of thorns was worn by Jesus; with the crown placed in her lap near her womb, it does add a clue to the possible destiny for Jon in terms of a messianic figure.

[MasterJack]

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke,

Under the flowery love Rhaegar offered Lyanna, was hidden his true motive, a cold dark loveless one; get a child from Stark Blood. Lyanna was the only Stark woman known to be of age to bear children. May she had been a 33yo fat ugly lady, he would have chosen her anyway.

Rhaegar read a book at a young age and this book changed his life. He works to accomplish a prophecy and would have never just fuck it up to sleep with a 14yo for fun and let his legacy be destroyed by wars.

He read somewhere his third child need to have Stark blood and convinced Lyanna he loved her, sleep with her and when she was pregnant, locked her in a tower, probably all the while hiding information about the outside world to her. She was only a little 14yo girl. Tomboyish or not, when the Prince Charming come to you, tell you he loves you, to shut the fuck up and to follow him under the sunset, any little girl would follow him.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

What does the QoT have to do with Jon or Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship?

Nothing, that we know of. However, roses and thorns are in every other context associated with the Tyrells. I had a thread about it here if you want to read through.

Also, Lord Redwyne is mentioned by name at the ToJ. That could just be Ned telling the Kingsguard that the Royal Navy had surrendered or it could be because his aunt is somehow involved in R+L.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

I've given some analysis of this in the past here. The key point being that the blue roses are a symbolic representation of Jon Snow. So, Ned reaching out and grasping the flowery crown is Ned "adopting" Jon, and there were consequences for doing so. The lies he told for fourteen years, etc.

AGoT, Eddard XV:

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

This first part ends up playing out much like the events that led to Jon's birth; Rhaegar bypasses his own wife in favor of Lyanna and places a crown of blue roses Jon in her lap womb.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

And, again, once you understand that the "flowery crown" is a metaphor for Jon, it's easy enough to figure out what this part means.

[Fire Eater]

Nothing, that we know of. However, roses and thorns are in every other context associated with the Tyrells. I had a thread about it here if you want to read through.

Also, Lord Redwyne is mentioned by name at the ToJ. That could just be Ned telling the Kingsguard that the Royal Navy had surrendered or it could be because his aunt is somehow involved in R+L.

The Tyrell sigil is a yellow rose, and the Tyrells aren't the only ones with a rose for a sigil, House Serry has a white rose for a sigil.

The blue rose specifically refers to Bael the Bard, R+L and their son, Jon. The blue rose is often associated with those of royal blood, something the Tyrells don't have.

Redwyne was Aerys's Master of Ships, indicating that the him along with the rest of the Targaryen loyalists have surrendered and pledged fealty to Robert.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The blue rose has probably been a methaphore for Jon before (in HotU Dany sees a blue rose in a wall of ice), so i agree with J. Stargaryen that the roses in the dreams of Ned could easily indicate Jon.

But the crown of blue roses was always used during tournaments, so it doesn't have to mean anything.

Rhaegar did not give Lyanna the crown because he loved her though. The tournament at Harrenhal was the first place they could have ever met, and love doesn't happen in one night.

Yes, Rhaegar read a prophecy, married, begot himself a daughter and named her Rhaenys, after the most beloved Queen of Aegon the Conqueror. Next, he had a son, whom he named after said Conqueror, Aegon. The dragon must always have three heada, however, and Elia could no longer have children.

When at Harrenhal, Rhaegae was send out by Aerys to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree. He returned with only the mystery knights shield. But is that really what happened?

I believe that Lyanna was the mystery knight, and that Rhaegar found her as she was trying to rid herself of the evidence. He would have appreciated her courage, and might have been infinuated with her, who was so very different from his own wife. He gave her the crown because she was stuck in his mind, not because he loved her.

For Lyanna, this would have become a turning point. Here was Rhaegar, soft of voice, known not to visit whores, or have bastards, who was everything Lyanna's own betrothed wasn't. Lyanna might have fallen in love with Rhaegar, and once there, he did not leave her mind again.

After Aegon's birth Pycelle told Rhaegar that Elia would not have any more children, which completely destroyed his chances for fulfilling his prophecy. That's when he remembered Lyanna. We know he did not stay in KL for long after Aegons birth, so I think he did not want to waste any time, but fulfill the prophecy as quick as possible. Remember that the original Visenya was 2 years older than the original Aegon, and him a year older than the original Rhaenys.

Since it was the line of Aegon and Rhaenys who continued the line of the dragonkings, Rhaegar might not have wanted to take chances, and named his firstborn daughter Rhaenys, so the blood of the eldest daughter would be joined by the blood of his heir, avoiding any fights about heritage à la Dance of Dragons.

But Rhaeger still needed his own Visenya, and to stay as closely to the original three as he possibly could, he needed the child quickly. After the news about Elia, he remembered the fierce girl he had presented with the crown of roses, and might have figured she would be perfect to birth a warrior queen (for Visenya was always more of a warrior than Rhaenys has been). I believe that is why he went to get Lyanna. And Lyanna, who did not really want to marry Robert, might have loved him and believed everything he said to her, even when he didn't mean it. Rhaegar lived to fulfill the prophecy, and his believe and trust in it were so big he cared only little about his honour, reputation, or whether he lived or died.

Rhaegar left the Tower of Joy before Lyanna gave birth, and never believed that any harm could come to any of his children, for they were needed in the world according to the prophecy. Only when Lyanna was taken back by Roberts forces, would his prophecy be endangered, hence the high security at ToJ and the little security at KL.

They say Rhaegar died with a name on his lips, but I don't think it was Lyanna, or Elia. I think it was Visenya, for the daughter he would never meet.

Little could Rhaegar have dreamed that his third child would not be the daughter he needed, but a son. Rhaegara best friend Jon had just been exiled, and I see it as possible he told Lyanna about him - they must have talked about something during that year. So perhaps, when Lyanna birthed a son instead of the desired daughter, she named the boy Jon to honour Rhaegars friend Jon Connigton. This was useful for Ned, who could let the little boy keep his birth name. He only needed to pretend the boy was named for Jon Arryn.

Edit: I would almost forget to add this. The thorns Ned feels show us that something that seems so pretty and nice on the outside, might not be on the inside, like Lyanna following Rhaegar because she fell in love with him (for as far as possible for a fifteen year old), only to discover it caused her father and brother to die, another brother to go to war andthe object of her love to die. It is also possible she discovered before her death Rhaegars real reasons - which could very well have broken her heart

[Audrey Arryn]

The blue rose has probably been a methaphore for Jon before (in HotU Dany sees a blue rose in a wall of ice), so i agree with J. Stargaryen that the roses in the dreams of Ned could easily indicate Jon.

But the crown of blue roses was always used during tournaments, so it doesn't have to mean anything.

Rhaegar did not give Lyanna the crown because he loved her though. The tournament at Harrenhal was the first place they could have ever met, and love doesn't happen in one night.

Yes, Rhaegar read a prophecy, married, begot himself a daughter and named her Rhaenys, after the most beloved Queen of Aegon the Conqueror. Next, he had a son, whom he named after said Conqueror, Aegon. The dragon must always have three heada, however, and Elia could no longer have children.

When at Harrenhal, Rhaegae was send out by Aerys to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree. He returned with only the mystery knights shield. But is that really what happened?

I believe that Lyanna was the mystery knight, and that Rhaegar found her as she was trying to rid herself of the evidence. He would have appreciated her courage, and might have been infinuated with her, who was so very different from his own wife. He gave her the crown because she was stuck in his mind, not because he loved her.

For Lyanna, this would have become a turning point. Here was Rhaegar, soft of voice, known not to visit whores, or have bastards, who was everything Lyanna's own betrothed wasn't. Lyanna might have fallen in love with Rhaegar, and once there, he did not leave her mind again.

After Aegon's birth Pycelle told Rhaegar that Elia would not have any more children, which completely destroyed his chances for fulfilling his prophecy. That's when he remembered Lyanna. We know he did not stay in KL for long after Aegons birth, so I think he did not want to waste any time, but fulfill the prophecy as quick as possible. Remember that the original Visenya was 2 years older than the original Aegon, and him a year older than the original Rhaenys.

Since it was the line of Aegon and Rhaenys who continued the line of the dragonkings, Rhaegar might not have wanted to take chances, and named his firstborn daughter Rhaenys, so the blood of the eldest daughter would be joined by the blood of his heir, avoiding any fights about heritage à la Dance of Dragons.

But Rhaeger still needed his own Visenya, and to stay as closely to the original three as he possibly could, he needed the child quickly. After the news about Elia, he remembered the fierce girl he had presented with the crown of roses, and might have figured she would be perfect to birth a warrior queen (for Visenya was always more of a warrior than Rhaenys has been). I believe that is why he went to get Lyanna. And Lyanna, who did not really want to marry Robert, might have loved him and believed everything he said to her, even when he didn't mean it. Rhaegar lived to fulfill the prophecy, and his believe and trust in it were so big he cared only little about his honour, reputation, or whether he lived or died.

Rhaegar left the Tower of Joy before Lyanna gave birth, and never believed that any harm could come to any of his children, for they were needed in the world according to the prophecy. Only when Lyanna was taken back by Roberts forces, would his prophecy be endangered, hence the high security at ToJ and the little security at KL.

They say Rhaegar died with a name on his lips, but I don't think it was Lyanna, or Elia. I think it was Visenya, for the daughter he would never meet.

Little could Rhaegar have dreamed that his third child would not be the daughter he needed, but a son. Rhaegara best friend Jon had just been exiled, and I see it as possible he told Lyanna about him - they must have talked about something during that year. So perhaps, when Lyanna birthed a son instead of the desired daughter, she named the boy Jon to honour Rhaegars friend Jon Connigton. This was useful for Ned, who could let the little boy keep his birth name. He only needed to pretend the boy was named for Jon Arryn.

:bowdown:

I love the idea of Rhaegar giving lyanna the crown as woman's version of winning the tournament after her performance of the knight of the laughing tree rather than for love.

[Mithras]

They say Rhaegar died with a name on his lips, but I don't think it was Lyanna, or Elia. I think it was Visenya, for the daughter he would never meet.

That was a vision that Dany put into words. She said Rhaegar died with a woman's name. Surely she is able to recognize Visenya. Therefore that name should be strange to her. It is also noteworthy that how did Dany assumed that the name was a woman's name?

[Ygrain]

That was a vision that Dany put into words. She said Rhaegar died with a woman's name. Surely she is able to recognize Visenya. Therefore that name should be strange to her. It is also noteworthy that how did Dany assumed that the name was a woman's name?

IIRC, it has been confirmed that the name was Lyanna.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

:bowdown:

I love the idea of Rhaegar giving lyanna the crown as woman's version of winning the tournament after her performance of the knight of the laughing tree rather than for love.

Indeed, that would be a very nice touch.

That was a vision that Dany put into words. She said Rhaegar died with a woman's name. Surely she is able to recognize Visenya. Therefore that name should be strange to her. It is also noteworthy that how did Dany assumed that the name was a woman's name?

Dany wouldn't have had to have recognized the name Visenya. Rhaegar would be wearing a helmet during his fight, right? Dany never says she sees his lips moving, she only notices he mummers a name - it could be that she heard a name escape his lips, though too faintly to hear which name it was.

Also, Viserys had told her so much about the war, she would have surely recognized Lyanna's name as quickly as Visenya's name.

IIRC, it has been confirmed that the name was Lyanna.

Source please? :)

[J. Stargaryen]

Indeed, that would be a very nice touch.

Dany wouldn't have had to have recognized the name Visenya. Rhaegar would be wearing a helmet during his fight, right? Dany never says she sees his lips moving, she only notices he mummers a name - it could be that she heard a name escape his lips, though too faintly to hear which name it was.

Also, Viserys had told her so much about the war, she would have surely recognized Lyanna's name as quickly as Visenya's name.

Source please? :)

He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips.

- app entry for Rhaegar Targaryen

[Not Dead Just Broken]

The Tyrell sigil is a yellow rose, and the Tyrells aren't the only ones with a rose for a sigil, House Serry has a white rose for a sigil.

The blue rose specifically refers to Bael the Bard, R+L and their son, Jon. The blue rose is often associated with those of royal blood, something the Tyrells don't have.

Redwyne was Aerys's Master of Ships, indicating that the him along with the rest of the Targaryen loyalists have surrendered and pledged fealty to Robert.

Here's how the Reader refers to the power of Highgarden:

“Highgarden,” replied the Reader. “Soon enough all the power of the Reach will be marshaled against us, Barber, and then you may learn that some roses have steel thorns.”

A symbol can have multiple meanings. As you say, it refers to both Bael the Bard and R+L=J.

House Serry doesn't have anyone called the Queen of Thorns associated with it. Considering how unenthusiastic the Tyrell war effort was, it's not unreasonable to think that they had some involvement beyond what is commonly known.

[Fire Eater]

Here's how the Reader refers to the power of Highgarden:

“Highgarden,” replied the Reader. “Soon enough all the power of the Reach will be marshaled against us, Barber, and then you may learn that some roses have steel thorns.”

A symbol can have multiple meanings. As you say, it refers to both Bael the Bard and R+L=J.

House Serry doesn't have anyone called the Queen of Thorns associated with it. Considering how unenthusiastic the Tyrell war effort was, it's not unreasonable to think that they had some involvement beyond what is commonly known.

There is no evidence, nothing to hint that the Tyrells had an involvement with R+L=J. As for unenthusiastic war effort, what evidence is given for that assumption? The Tyrells besieged SE, and met Robert's forces at Ashford.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

There is no evidence, nothing to hint that the Tyrells had an involvement with R+L=J. As for unenthusiastic war effort, what evidence is given for that assumption? The Tyrells besieged SE, and met Robert's forces at Ashford.

The hint is the thorns. Ned doesn't view adopting Jon as a mistake. There are no thorns there. There's something else Ned was reaching for, something beautiful which turned ugly. Whether that was Rickard's southern ambitions being thwarted or something else, I'm not sure.

There are too many pieces to the Rhaegar and Lyanna story that are unexplained. The logistics of the "kidnapping" for one. There are a lot of other holes. As I've said elsewhere, someone had to be supplying the ToJ through the rebellion. While Starfall is possible, Ashara Dayne was a handmaiden of Elia Martells and may not have agreed with Arthur on this one. The Red Viper would have likely been none too happy about the idea of hosting his brother-in-law and his mistress in Dorne and any house that helped Lyanna would likely have faced his wrath. Dorne wanted Elia's children to sit the Iron Throne but they wouldn't have been too fond of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The more likely answer is Highgarden and the Reach. After all, there are roses in Lyanna's chamber when she dies.

There's a natural rivalry between Sunspear and Highgarden. Rhaegar choosing Elia over a couple of marriageable Tyrells would have offended Highgarden as much as it did Casterly Rock. We know Mace Tyrell is obsessed with getting Margaery on the throne. Isn't it possible that oobsession stemmed a generation back? Isn't it possible he's trying to right the perceived slight to his sisters? The Queen of Thorns tries to downplay her sons ambitions as folly. However, I believe that her continued efforts on Margaery's behalf show a vested interest in her son's games.

The Tyrells camped in front of Storm's End and Mace Tyrell had some feasts. It's not like they broke out the siege weapons and tried to storm the walls. It was somewhat effective but not particularly risky or brave. The battle at Ashford was first of all, in Tyrell territory and second was basically a coincidence. Randyll Tarly's vanguard happened upon Robert's army and forced him to retreat. Mace Tyrell did nothing. The Tyrells lose a few people in the Tarly-led vanguard, that's it. There's no pursuit, no real army to army clash. The first opportunity the Tyrells have to fight in the main, they surrender. Sure, Aerys is dead but if they really believed in the cause they could have backed Viserys and continued the fight. The Redwyne navy would have given the Royalists enough time to mount a counter-attack. After all, with Dorne and the Reach still loyal, they had a chance.

[grand old duke of stark]

The hint is the thorns. Ned doesn't view adopting Jon as a mistake. There are no thorns there. There's something else Ned was reaching for, something beautiful which turned ugly. Whether that was Rickard's southern ambitions being thwarted or something else, I'm not sure.

<snip>

Whenever I re-read that passage I can't help but feel that it is something negative about Ned (and I am as Ned-centric as any forum member!). It may be a foreshadowing of his eventual martyrdom. It may signal judgment against him for not telling Jon of his parentage. It may be something about Starks impinging on Targaryen fate. In any case, as far as we know Ned has kept his promise to Lyanna all these years but is still troubled by it. Maybe that is behind the thorns and blood.