Bannerman of Winterfell Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 if the north and riverlands had been placated with ned stark release or sending to the wall, how could've tywin still hoped to fight the combined might of the reach and the stormlands all on his own with just 35-45000 men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Guerrilla warfare, bribery, red weddings (if he gets such opportunities). He might try to expand his army by acquiring soliders from Essos (after all he has all the gold of Casterly Rock). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 if the north and riverlands had been placated with ned stark release or sending to the wall, how could've tywin still hoped to fight the combined might of the reach and the stormlands all on his own with just 35-45000 men? He would probably have raised the Crownlands to add to his men as well as taking as many mercenaries with him as possible, and those sellswords who fought with Robb and Edmure might want to join a team that has a reason to give them jobs. To this he would no doubt find a good position, possibly wait at King's Landing, and there fight a battle on his own terms as he knows the Baratheon brothers will come for the capital. He would, contrary to some person notion about warfare, not charge off in a head-to-head battle and hope for the best. When he recieves news that Stannis has assassinated Renly and the Tyrells have split off he will attempt to make an alliance with them. And basically Stannis will come into an even worse battle then he did in real life and very well be smashed by Tywin before he can get to King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blutraven Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Ned wouldn't stand by knowing that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella aren't Robert's. He'd send ravens out saying what Stannis has said is true and then he'd ally himself with Stannis. Ned saying that J, T and M aren't Roberts would make more Stormlords join the Stannis/North/Riverlands alliance (Ned's known to always tell the truth). If he also says that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn the Lysa couldn't keep the Vale out of the war (If she tried she'd probably get removed from power by Bronze Yohn). Tywin would have all the North, Riverlands and Vale against him to the north and Stannis Blockade King's Landing from the sea. Balon Greyjoy wouldn't rebel if Ned's still alive as well. The south would be closed to him as well and Dorne would join the side the gives them the easiest chance of retribution. In short, Tywin would be fucked. if for some reason Ned would keep his mouth shut it would go like how Gurkhal said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fightbringer Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 He could raise more men from the Westerlands, he was able to raise two more armies in the Westerlands (after the Whispering Wood, and again after Oxcross) so he could probably get at least 60,000 men or so from his own lands, and add to that with mercenaries and crownlands men. After that he probably wouldnt have more men than Renly did, but he had a better equipped, and more experienced fighting force for the most part, and he has far more military experience than Renly, so he would have a great chance of beating him if he lured him into a strategically advantageous situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Its doubtful that he would have been able to raise more men then Renly considering the power of the Reach and Stormlands, but of course he would be in a much better position than if he wasn't fighting the Starks as their would be little worry in concerning his rear. After all, the movements of the Baratheon brothers are going to be more predictable than the Starks. Their twin goal will always be Kings Landing, and the Lannisters would then be able to take steps to prepare for their coming. That said, do you mean before or after the destruction of Jaime's army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 That said, do you mean before or after the destruction of Jaime's army? It would have *had* to be after, because Ned's execution (which would have been replaced with taking the black in this scenario) occurred after Jaime was captured but before news of it reached KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 I imagine that Tywin would have tried to use Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey as a hook to persuade the Starks and Tullys to aid him against the Baratheons. I doubt he would have succeeded, but he would have tried. He might have sweetened the pot by offering Myrcella to Edmure or somesuch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 It would have *had* to be after, because Ned's execution (which would have been replaced with taking the black in this scenario) occurred after Jaime was captured but before news of it reached KL. Supposedly, and it makes the most sense. Still the numbers that the OP provides makes me think he could mean that the Lannisters were at full strength when he/she thought up the scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 He would have used some type of treachery or cruelty the gods frowned upon to deal with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Would Renly and Stannis ever team up considering the Reach only supports Renly in that Marg will be Queen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 He'd have lost, both Stannis and Renly are already married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Would Renly and Stannis ever team up considering the Reach only supports Renly in that Marg will be Queen ? Given the parley they did hold at Storm's End there's no chance in hell that either of them will step down for the other. He'd have lost, both Stannis and Renly are already married. No, he would've faced them on the field of battle at a chosen battlefield and there contested who the crown should belong to with arms. And I might recall that Stannis and Renly still won't stand each other and that Stannis will still likely have Renly assassinated and thus split the Stormlands+some Reachmen from the Tyrells. Which will mean that Stannis will still be defeated, either by Renly if he does not kill his brother, or by Lannister-Tyrell army. The only thing that could possible defeat Tywin is if Renly is allowed to kill Stannis and thus send his army to attack King's Landing. But by that time Tywin's army is likely to have made it there and it will be a savage struggle for Renly to win the throne, although he probably would be able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Dead Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Tywin was a delusional idiot if he really thought they could make peace with the North and the Riverlands after all that shit. But let's say it happened. And let's say the shadow baby happens too. I'm asuming Sansa and Joff are still bethroded and the Starks and Lannisters are at least on speaking terms, no treason involved. So there's no Iron Throne for the Tyrells there. They would turn to Stannis and marry Shireen to Willas or some shit like that.And the outcome depends on the attitude the North would take: if they would actively fight alongside the Lannisters or just remain neutral. If it's the latter, Stannis and the Tyrells would win, but if the North and the Riverlands fought for Tywin, then the Lannisters win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Tywin was a delusional idiot if he really thought they could make peace with the North and the Riverlands after all that shit. But let's say it happened. And let's say the shadow baby happens too. I'm asuming Sansa and Joff are still bethroded and the Starks and Lannisters are at least on speaking terms, no treason involved. So there's no Iron Throne for the Tyrells there. They would turn to Stannis and marry Shireen to Willas or some shit like that. And the outcome depends on the attitude the North would take: if they would actively fight alongside the Lannisters or just remain neutral. If it's the latter, Stannis and the Tyrells would win, but if the North and the Riverlands fought for Tywin, then the Lannisters win Up until Eddard Stark got killed the conflict between the Lannisters and the Tullys and Starks were not unsolvable. Strange as it is to a 21st century humanist no or few people of importance had until that point been killed, like Lannisters, Starks or Tullys, and thus it would've been perfectly possible to make a peace between these three Houses. If a shadow baby is born the Tyrells will never fight the Lannisters. They wanted their puppet on the throne and they will not bled to put a king who despise and hate them on that throne. So even if the Tyrells won't fight the Lannisters it will come down to the West against the Stormlands+some Reachmen. The Tyrells will just go home and make their peace with the King's Landing, I can't possible see them making common cause with Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Remember, if the Starks and Lannisters were to settle down some of their conflict this would have made it so that Renly would have marched his army faster to attack the Lannisters. Thus, he would have likely bloodied the Lannisters before Stannis can have him shadowbabied. Moreover, part of me doubts that if the Lannisters start getting majored bloodied by Tyrell and R.Baratheon forces that the North and Riverlands will just continue to stay neutral. In how, they still hold some type of grudge against Tywin thus they might just break their peace with the Lannisters and assist in the blooding of the Lannisters while they are distracted by Renly's forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Dead Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Up until Eddard Stark got killed the conflict between the Lannisters and the Tullys and Starks were not unsolvable. Strange as it is to a 21st century humanist no or few people of importance had until that point been killed, like Lannisters, Starks or Tullys, and thus it would've been perfectly possible to make a peace between these three Houses. No Starks, Lannisters or Tullys perhaps, but Robert and Jon Arryn (who were like a brother and father to Ned), Bran was crippled (and everyone thought the Lannisters were behind the attempt to kill him), and the Riverlands were fucked up. If Ned had just let all that slide and had gone with LF's offer, then yes, I can see peace. But after Ned was imprisoned? Not so much. Let's say he's sent to the Wall and Robb bends the knee, reluctant as hell. The moment Stannis and Renly enter the scene as true threats, Robb and the North are back to rebellion mode, not only to get their revenge for all the aforementioned shit, but also because Stannis' letter about the incest would've reached them and they would realize that by bending the knee to Joff they would be traitors to the true king, Stannis. So that would've been the shortest, uneasiest peace ever, if you ask me If a shadow baby is born the Tyrells will never fight the Lannisters. They wanted their puppet on the throne and they will not bled to put a king who despise and hate them on that throne. So even if the Tyrells won't fight the Lannisters it will come down to the West against the Stormlands+some Reachmen. The Tyrells will just go home and make their peace with the King's Landing, I can't possible see them making common cause with Stannis. Yeah, you're right in this. The Tyrells wouldn't have made peace with Stannis, probably. Not even they are that ambitious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 If the Lannisters send Ned to the Wall but learn a few days later that Jaime's been captured, they either have to give Ned a full pardon so that they can trade him for Jaime or else land in the same hostage impasse they had in the books, with the Starks holding Jaime and the Lannisters holding Sansa, unable to trade but also unable to give either one up without getting the other back. If Robb couldn't trade Jaime for his father, I expect he'd have kept him as a hostage indefinitely, or, if he felt sure that Sansa was safe, would demand an obscenely high ransom that even Tywin would find painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 He could raise more men from the Westerlands, he was able to raise two more armies in the Westerlands (after the Whispering Wood, and again after Oxcross) so he could probably get at least 60,000 men or so from his own lands, and add to that with mercenaries and crownlands men. After that he probably wouldnt have more men than Renly did, but he had a better equipped, and more experienced fighting force for the most part, and he has far more military experience than Renly, so he would have a great chance of beating him if he lured him into a strategically advantageous situation No. 45,000 men is pretty much the limit the Westerlands can field, scraping the barrel and all. Before the Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps costed them ~10,000 of their best! By and large, the Lannisters were praying for a constant chain of good luck from the start, nothing else could have saved them - which they are fully aware of! it's just impossible for them to sue for peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Lets not give him mythical prowess, he had plenty of time to deal with them and couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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