The friendship of Jon & Tyrion

[Ahura Mazda]

How was he good? Because he didn't rape her, just molested her? Sorry, not raping your political hostage wife does not make you a good husband. He never should have been her husband in the first place since she's a hostage!

Ehm.. he molested her? when..? It has been a while since last time I read it.. the impression I had is that he tried to not hurt her.. That doesn't make him a good husband, but certainly not bad too, imho. What am I remembering wrong, can kindly you help me? :leaving:

Edit: doesn't the fact that the marriage was imposed against his will not count at all?

[Dany Girl]

Ehm.. he molested her? when..? It has been a while since last time I read it.. the impression I had is that he tried to not hurt her.. That doesn't make of him a good husband, but certainly not bad in my view. What am I remembering wrong, can you help me?

He makes her get naked and gropes her boob... that's sexual molestation

[Winter's Knight]

He gropes her breast.

Well,he asks her to strip then gropes her breast.

[Dicer]

Jon gets stabbed at the end of ADWD because of his memories of his family and Winterfell because that is what leads him to want to go south. The Stark siblings are a regular presence all the way through his POV chapters something which Tyrion isn't. Family so far has been a tremendously powerful in Jon's imagination, deal with somebody who even in the best light took advantage of his sister is going to be difficult for Jon.

I would say it was more Arya than his 'Stark Siblings' that leads him to make the decision to attack Ramsay. Jon and Arya have always had a close bond and throughout ADwD he worries and thinks constantly of her. Arya is why he lets Mance ( A known NW deserter) leave the wall. He thinks once of Sansa at the end of the book when he thinks of all of his siblings including Robb, Bran and Rickon. But it's Arya's memory that forces his hand.

Contrast Jon's constant worry about Arya's marriage to Ramsay with his total lack of even thinking about Sansa and Tyrion.

Even just looking at Jon's thoughts about his siblings before ADwD, he rarely thinks about Sansa. It's mostly about Robb, Bran and Arya. Perhaps because he hung out with them the most. This does not mean that he does not care about Sansa. He does. But thinking about his siblings or lack of thinking about his siblings is not indicative of his priorities. If dealing with Tyrion is important to beat the Others, I think he will put aside differences. Jon tends to be practical that way. He works with rapists and murderers and was even ready to work with Janos Slynt. The fact that he likes Tyrion and thinks well of him would help in working together.

Like I said earlier, I would think that family is important to Sansa too. So if we expect Tyrion's actions as a Lannister to destroy his friendship with Jon, we should expect the same from Sansa's relationship with Sandor. He played a part in taking down her house in KL. He killed Stark men. He kidnapped her sister. So she should not be thinking too kindly of Sandor, right?

[Lummel]

:blush:

*Dear diary,

Today Lummel complimented my post...*

Heh, Winter's knight you are like cholesterol to me. Close to the seat of my affections despite your threats to my health!

...Edit: doesn't the fact that the marriage was imposed against his will not count at all?

nobody had to drag Tyrion to the wedding. I don't think jon could regard Tyrion's political marriage to Sansa as the gesture of a friend.

...Like I said earlier, I would think that family is important to Sansa too. So if we expect Tyrion's actions as a Lannister to destroy his friendship with Jon, we should expect the same from Sansa's relationship with Sandor. He played a part in taking down her house in KL. He killed Stark men. He kidnapped her sister. So she should not be thinking too kindly of Sandor, right?

eh, who says that Sansa is the same as Jon (although there is a rich range of allusions to him in Sansa's POV chapters as detailed by Tze)? And Sansa does crop up in Jon's thoughts. Chapters which feature a reference to one sibling often have allusions to the others. I can't swear for ADWD because we haven't got that far in Jon Snow reread yet.

[Ahura Mazda]

He makes her get naked and gropes her boob... that's sexual molestation

I fail to see how that qualifies Tyrion as a terrible husband though. Within the cultural framework of Westeros Tyrions was qualified to do exactly as much Drogo did with Daenerys, that wouldn't account as "rape" but rather "duty" as husband and wife.. for both of them.

I'm not saying that I would approve such a behaviour in any non-fictional framework, just that GRRM presented it like "rape" in the modern sense of the word. :uhoh:

A good husband would certainly have tried harder to improve her capability of living through the difficult situation she has found herself.. though I suspect that Tyrion repellent face and anti-perfect-prince body had much to do as well.. pretty and smiling faces inspire trust and sympathy to all of us. The same holds for Sansa though: as much as Tyrion seeked refuge in wine and distractions, Sansa seeked refuge in her own ice palace without trying to understand her husband feelings and the hurt he has, which is deep. They have both behaved wrongly for an ideal and sane marriage, but accordingly with a marriage neither of them wanted to get into.. it is realistic that they both failed to understand each other's feelings and thoughts. So I fail to see why one of the two should take more blame than the other..

A remark: I don't want to state he was a good husband, only that he wasn't a bad one. A bad one would have actually raped her with violence, and maybe beat her too to force her comply with it if she refused. He stopped, though drunk with wine.. is it really so bad, under the Westerosy framework? :unsure:

@Lummel:

Well, ok, nobody had to drag Sansa with a sword at her throat too. I didn't get the impression neither of them enjoyed it and thought fun would come out of it.. they were both scared of consequences would they refuse to full fill orders. :unsure:

[Dany Girl]

Edit: doesn't the fact that the marriage was imposed against his will not count at all?

But it wasn't imposed on him. Tywin gave him the choice between Sansa and Lollys. He chose the pretty wife with the better castle. He could have not married her out of respect for his friend Jon, or just chose to not be the douche that married the political hostage. Every single person outside the Lannister camp that thinks or talks about the marriage thinks it's wrong.

[SeanF]

I would say it was more Arya than his 'Stark Siblings' that leads him to make the decision to attack Ramsay. Jon and Arya have always had a close bond and throughout ADwD he worries and thinks constantly of her. Arya is why he lets Mance ( A known NW deserter) leave the wall. He thinks once of Sansa at the end of the book when he thinks of all of his siblings including Robb, Bran and Rickon. But it's Arya's memory that forces his hand.

Contrast Jon's constant worry about Arya's marriage to Ramsay with his total lack of even thinking about Sansa and Tyrion.

Even just looking at Jon's thought about his siblings before ADwD, he rarely thinks about Sansa. It's mostly about Robb, Bran and Arya. Perhaps because he hung out with them the most. This does not mean that he does not care about Sansa. He does. But thinking about his siblings or lack of thinking about his siblings is not indicative of his priorities. If dealing with Tyrion is important to beat the Others, I think he will put aside differences. Jon tends to be practical that way. He works with rapists and murderers and was even ready to work with Janos Slynt. The fact that he likes Tyrion and thinks well of him would help in working together.

Like I said earlier, I would think that family is important to Sansa too. So if we expect Tyrion's actions as a Lannister to destroy his friendship with Jon, we should expect the same from Sansa's relationship with Sandor. He played a part in taking down her house in KL. He killed Stark men. He kidnapped her sister. So she should not be thinking too kindly of Sandor, right?

He thinks of all of his siblings, when he decides to fight Ramsay directly. It's a very moving paragraph, to see Jon reach the point of snapping.

[Dany Girl]

I fail to see how that qualifies Tyrion as a terrible husband though. Within the cultural framework of Westeros Tyrions was qualified to do exactly as much Drogo did with Daenerys, that wouldn't account as "rape" but rather "duty" as husband and wife.. for both of them.

I'm not saying that I would approve such a behaviour in any non-fictional framework, just that GRRM presented it like "rape" in the modern sense of the word. :uhoh:

A good husband would certainly have tried harder to improve her capability of living through the difficult situation she has found herself.. though I suspect that Tyrion repellent face and anti-perfect-prince body had much to do as well.. pretty and smiling faces inspire trust and sympathy to all of us. The same holds for Sansa though: as much as Tyrion seeked refuge in wine and distractions, Sansa seeked refuge in her own ice palace without trying to understand her husband feelings and the hurt he has, which is deep. They have both behaved wrongly for an ideal and sane marriage, but accordingly with a marriage neither of them wanted to get into.. it is realistic that they both failed to understand each other's feelings and thoughts. So I fail to see why one of the two should take more blame than the other..

A remark: I don't want to state he was a good husband, only that he wasn't a bad one. A bad one would have actually raped her with violence, and maybe beat her too to force her comply with it if she refused. He stopped, though drunk with wine.. is it really so bad, under the Westerosy framework? :unsure:

@Lummel:

Well, ok, nobody had to drag Sansa with a sword at her throat too. I didn't get the impression neither of them enjoyed it and thought fun would come out of it.. they were both scared of consequences would they refuse to full fill orders. :unsure:

He wasn't scared of consequences. He was swayed by her pretty face, hot body, and seat of power.

Dany agreed to her marriage, it was a political marriage where she knew her duty, just as Cat married Ned. Sansa was forced against her will under threat of bodily harm to marry Tyrion.

Tyrion may not have been a terrible husband a la Ramsey or Gregor, but he was far from a good one. When he wasn't groping her he waa neglecting her and fucking his whore. Better his whore than Sansa, but still not a good husband.

[Ahura Mazda]

But it wasn't imposed on him. Tywin gave him the choice between Sansa and Lollys. He chose the pretty wife with the better castle. He could have not married her out of respect for his friend Jon, or just chose to not be the douche that married the political hostage. Every single person outside the Lannister camp that thinks or talks about the marriage thinks it's wrong.

Oh, good. I forgot that. I could argue that maybe that wasn't a "real choice", just like asking whether you would rather eat ice or shit isn't, but I will accept your counter argument since I completely forgot that detail. Thank you. :laugh:

Edit:

For your other reply.. imho those situations are more comparable than what you're stating, but I agree that it's really a matter of personal opinion here. Thanks for sharing your PoV with me. :thumbsup:

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The fact that he likes liked Tyrion and thinks thought well of him four years ago would help in working together.

Fixed.

[Dicer]

eh, who says that Sansa is the same as Jon (although there is a rich range of allusions to him in Sansa's POV chapters as detailed by Tze)? And Sansa does crop up in Jon's thoughts. Chapters which feature a reference to one sibling often have allusions to the others. I can't swear for ADWD because we haven't got that far in Jon Snow reread yet.

He thinks of Sansa exactly once in ADwD at the end when he thinks of all his siblings. Sansa is not much better. She even states that she completely forgot about Jon in AFfC and is only reminded of him when Myranda Royce mentions the new LC.

As for Jon thinking of all his siblings, here are some of his memories of them. Let's see how often Sansa makes an appearance:

He remembered the day he had left Winterfell, all the bittersweet farewells; Bran lying broken, Robb with snow in his hair, Arya raining kisses on him after he’d given her Needle.

Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night’s Watch, not the boy who’d once sat at Old Nan’s feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont’s permission. It would be good to see Arya’s grin again and to talk with his father.

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran . . . forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place.

Playing, Jon thought in astonishment, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them.

Sansa thinks of playing in the snow with Bran and Arya and snowflakes in Robb's hair but never of Jon. It's obvious they moved in different circles.

Fixed.

Is there anything to show us that he does not like Tyrion anymore? In ADwD he wonders on how much Tyrion has changed considering he killed his own father. And that's about it. I think Jon still thinks well of him and views him as separate from the other Lannisters. Killing Tywin must be a huge point in his favor.

He thinks of all of his siblings, when he decides to fight Ramsay directly. It's a very moving paragraph, to see Jon reach the point of snapping.

Yes, but it's Ramsay's reminder of his bride in the pink letter that makes Jon's decision:

I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said. (JON XIII)

[Lummel]

He thinks of Sansa exactly once in ADwD at the end when he thinks of all his siblings. Sansa is not much better. She even states that she completely forgot about Jon in AFfC and is only reminded of him when Myranda Royce mentions the new LC.

As for Jon thinking of all his siblings, here are some of his memories of them. Let's see how often Sansa makes an appearance:

Sansa thinks of playing in the snow with Bran and Arya and snowflakes in Robb's hair but never of Jon. It's obvious they moved in different circles...

You've missed a lot of references - they are not all by name, read the post by Tze that I linked in my previous post - Jon is a presence in her thoughts, yes even in AFFC before she speaks to Myranda Royce.

Likewise we're rereading Jon in the reread forum and there are references to Sansa and the other siblings and not all those allusions use their names.

I don't see any indication that Jon's going to shrug his shoulders and simply accept Tyrion and Tyrion's role in the marriage to Sansa. Of course he does try to work with Janos Slynt - but its not easy.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I definitely foresee Tyrion and Jon meeting again. They're both important to each other's arcs, or GRRM wouldn't have spent the time developing their relationship. It won't be until the final novel that they meet again though.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Ya, honestly I don't think the friendship they had is going to mean diddly squat to Jon if he ever meets Tyrion again. Maybe if Jon becomes king he'll give Tyrion the option of taking the black or going into exile over just cutting off his head.

After everything Tyrion's family has done to Jon's, including Tyrion's own actions of marrying Sansa, that friendship is most certainly OVER.

Absolutely not. Jon doesn't have any negative thoughts about Tyrion. He looks back on him and finds some of the accusations against him as being unbelievable. I don't think either of them will be particularly mad at one another and will be glad to see each other again.

[W. Frey - Wedding Planner]

If Jon becomes a King (there are several crowns that could be logically placed on those sexy dark curls), the power and wealth of House Lannister would be very valuable. He pardons Tyrion and bestow his birthright upon him, in exchange for Tyrion's help in cleaning up some of the realms (or less likely, but possibly the Night's Watch's) debt.

[Lord_Tyrell]

If the two of them were to meet again it would be very awkward...

"So... uh... Sorry about your family Jon. I mean it was my sister/Nephew that killed your father, and my own father carried out the brutal murder of your brother and gave your sisters away to be married. And yes I did marry one."

They had a friendship for a matter of months, and it did seem genuine, but what will become of them years after the fact?

You got to keep in mind that Tyrion has supposedly killed off 2/3rds of those people mentioned and hates them even more than Jon does. Tyrion was just stuck in a bad family, and I think Jon can understand this, especially since he'll be having identity issues of his own when they meet again.

[nirolo]

Jon only thinks of Tyrion once in ADwD and it shows only incredulity toward the news of Tyrion's kinslaying:

Jon had known Tyrion Lannister, briefly. He took my hand and named me friend. It was hard to believe the little man had it in him to murder his own sire[...]

What's interesting about this quote is that Jon is misremembering things. In AGoT, it was Jon who first offered his hand to Tyrion and named him friend. But here, it seems Jon's memory is reversed and he now believes Tyrion is one who first called Jon friend.

Not sure whether to make a big deal of this discrepancy.

It should also be noted that Jon doesn't know Tyrion very well, or at least Jon doesn't believe that. Since he thinks he knew Tyrion only briefly. Still, there is no sign of hostility.

[nirolo]

I don't see any indication that Jon's going to shrug his shoulders and simply accept Tyrion and Tyrion's role in the marriage to Sansa. Of course he does try to work with Janos Slynt - but its not easy.

I find it hard to believe Jon would bring harm to Tyrion before he hears Sansa's PoV. It's just uncharacteristic for him. Also, what would Jon do if Sansa herself doesn't want retribution?

There are too many unknowns at the moment to allow a prediction. And the reunion would be affected by things like whether Jon remains a NW brother, his relationship with Stannis, his goal of protecting the realm against the others, and whether Tyrion brings anything to the table that might help Jon fight his war, etc.

[Dicer]

You've missed a lot of references - they are not all by name, read the post by Tze that I linked in my previous post - Jon is a presence in her thoughts, yes even in AFFC before she speaks to Myranda Royce.

Likewise we're rereading Jon in the reread forum and there are references to Sansa and the other siblings and not all those allusions use their names.

I did not come across Sansa thinking about Jon at all in AFfC before Myranda Royce brings him up (You can correct me if I am wrong. It's been a while since I read the book). I did not see any references to him at all. She thinks about Arya, Bran and Robb, but not Jon. Can you give me one example of how Jon is a presence in her thoughts when she herself admits to forgetting about him?

Here's one example of Sansa considering her options in AFfC:

Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun.

What about her half brother?! The thought never crosses her mind that she has a relative up north. She even considers Tyrion as an option but not Jon. Compare that to Arya trying to make her way to Jon at the wall after Robb and Cat's deaths. Even Alys Karstark escaped her family and headed over to the wall because there was a Stark there.

Similarly with Jon's POV. The earlier books have occasional references to them interacting but not as much as with Bran, Robb and Arya as I showed above with quotes from the books. Jon mentions that Sansa taught him how to talk to girls once (Which considering Sansa's attitude about ladies and knights is understandable) and Sansa prays for Jon along with the rest of her family and pities him for being with the NW (ACoK)

Other than that Jon's memories of her include her brushing Lady's fur and singing and not of personal interactions between them. Among all his siblings, Sansa makes the least appearance in his POVs. Jon mentions Rickon more than he does Sansa.

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya . . . he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful.

The memories he has of the rest of his siblings are positive: Rickon's bright eyes, Robb as best friend, Bran being stubborn and curious, Arya being fierce and willful. And the thing that he associates with Sansa is her calling him half brother. Again that does not mean that he does not care for her. He misses her but he qualifies that with an 'even Sansa'.