Did Oberyn Martell die on purpose?

[taem]

Interesting take on "I'll haunt you through the seven hells", never thought of it that way. I assumed it meant "I've already killed you" because of the poison.

Also, I get the sense that he wouldn't have been a huge fan of his brother's methodical and patient ways and would not have bet on Dorne under Prince Doran's rule rising up in any way. The Sand Snakes are also highly critical of Doran, I would suspect they get some of that from their father, whom they adore.

As a side note, why do we never hear about Oberyn's bastard sons ? Does he not care for them ? Or was he simply ridiculously lucky in that he gave birth to 8 daughters ?

I seem to recall something about someone commenting that Oberyn only fathers daughters. Maybe I dreamt it.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

I don't think he had it in mind for him to intentionally die, but I'm pretty sure he didn't care if he did die or not. The only thing that mattered to him is piercing Clegane with the poisoned spear, when he did that, justice was served pretty much already. Gregor would die a slow, painful death afterwards. Too bad he got cocky at the end.

[Sultan of Westeros]

Yes i have thought about this and thinks there is a fair chance of it being true

[Mithras]

I don't think he had it in mind for him to intentionally die, but I'm pretty sure he didn't care if he did die or not. The only thing that mattered to him is piercing Clegane with the poisoned spear, when he did that, justice was served pretty much already. Gregor would die a slow, painful death afterwards. Too bad he got cocky at the end.

How about Tywin? He knew that Tywin gave the orders. What was his plan for Tywin?

[Apollo]

I think, that after the first cut on Gregor, Oberyn knew that he had avenged his sister. Or started.

I would say Oberyn, a passionate man was finally over come by passion. I myself cannot imagine nor put myself in his shoes, but I would guess that the knowledge that the man who rapes and killed your beloved twin (were they twins I'm pretty sure but alas I am not certain?) sister was going to died, either quickly by his hand and he, Oberyn would win the trial and free Tyrion by proving his innocence. Of course this would forever cause Cersei to hate Oberyn, as well as continue to try destroy Tyrion. So Lannsiters would be at Lannister throats.

So no, I not think Oberyn wanted to die. The man loved life, he had kids he loved. A beautiful paramour as well as Dorne to serve.

But his "life quest" of vengeance for his sister was half done, the man who swung the sword was dying, and if Oberyn won the duel them he too would live on. If Gregor managed to kill Oberyn(sadly he did) oh well the poison will get him.

Which brings my incoherent ramblings to Tywin Lannister. Oberyn blames Tywin, I do not doubt this at all. He wanted Gregor to confess. But when it was apparent that Oberyn was moments from victory, his passion would of most likely meant he wanted to kill Gregor himself.

However, he fucked up. And died. So really, this whole thing is a lose-lose situation for almost everyone.

[Red Tiger]

^They were not Twins, Elia was a year older.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

How about Tywin? He knew that Tywin gave the orders. What was his plan for Tywin?

Well, if the theories of Oberyn poisoning Tywin beforehand are true, then that is taken care of.

[LordQorgyle]

I think he was just overconfident and Gregor saw chance and didn't waste it

[Rhaegars Heir]

Well, if the theories of Oberyn poisoning Tywin beforehand are true, then that is taken care of.

ok so your explanation is another tacked on theory that's also unproven and necessary sound logic

[Mithras]

ok so your explanation is another tacked on theory that's also unproven and necessary sound logic

Theories cannot be proven by definition. When they are proved, they become facts. Oberyn poisoning Tywin before the duel is an elegant theory which connects many dots.

[Rhaegars Heir]

Theories cannot be proven by definition. When they are proved, they become facts. Oberyn poisoning Tywin before the duel is an elegant theory which connects many dots.

you have no idea what the word theory means a theory uses facts to prove a conclusion I.e gravity is a theory that has facts behind it to prove it's existence. did you learn you definition of theory from ken ham and ray comfort

[sj4iy]

I don't think he WANTED to die, I just don't think he cared whether or not he did as long as he got justice for Elia and her children. The fact that he didn't choose a fast-acting poison says a lot, I think. It was made to draw out death over a torturous amount of time inflicting the maximum amount of pain slowly. If Martell wanted to kill him right away, he would have killed him. I think it was back-up insurance just in case he didn't get his confession. I think, if the Mountain had confessed (you know, without killing Oberyn), Martell would have gone ahead and killed him. But Martell was fine with playing dangerously to get his confession, because he could have killed the Mountain and didn't.

[Rhaegars Heir]

I don't think he WANTED to die, I just don't think he cared whether or not he did as long as he got justice for Elia and her children. The fact that he didn't choose a fast-acting poison says a lot, I think. It was made to draw out death over a torturous amount of time inflicting the maximum amount of pain slowly. If Martell wanted to kill him right away, he would have killed him. I think it was back-up insurance just in case he didn't get his confession. I think, if the Mountain had confessed (you know, without killing Oberyn), Martell would have gone ahead and killed him. But Martell was fine with playing dangerously to get his confession, because he could have killed the Mountain and didn't.

i couldn't agree with you more

[oursisthefury69]

I think a very general point for the OP is that Oberyn poisoned Gregor with a purpose; I don't think he would have ever gave him a clean death during the trial, he wanted him to have to suffer through the poison. If anything he probably intended to just leave the trial once he got his confession

@Rhaegarsheir Since your being so blatantly dismissive of the Oberyn poisoned Tywin aspect of the theory, do you care to offer some insight into what Oberyn's plan was initially when he came to Kings Landing?

Is he seeing into the future and knows

1. Joffrey will be poisoned and

2.Tyrion will be put on trial and

3. Cersie would name Gregor as a champion?

Because its pretty clear Oberyn came to Kings Landing with an actual plan in place, (maybe your a show watcher who thinks he only came around to bang abuncha boys in girls in Kings Landing's ever unique Westorosi brothels?) so are you suggesting he just came to Kings Landing for shits and giggles or that he can see into the future? He tells Tyrion your father wont live forever and mentions a poison akin to what was happening to Tywin on the toilet before he dies.

On top of all the normally referenced points of how Tywin appeared poisoned and how Oberyn implies he would die, how he would benefit ect; I think Its much more important to

1. consider what his original plan was before the Purple Weddng, and to

2. piece together the facts that Oberyn wanted an immediate rebellion initially following Elia's murder, but after some convincing from Jon Arryn and presumably Doran, Oberyn decided to take a longer route and personally designed and witnessed the marriage pact for Arianne and Viserys as a means of planning a future rebellion all these years ago, and then its just coincidence that he shows up at KL acting recklessly shortly after Viserys' death?

[poggo]

I think he just underestimated the mountain. And this is no shame.

The mountain is, to some degree a fantasy superhuman. (He is not as much "fantasy" as a dragon, but I would say, he isnt 100% "realistic" either.)

you have no idea what the word theory means a theory uses facts to prove a conclusion I.e gravity is a theory that has facts behind it to prove it's existence. did you learn you definition of theory from ken ham and ray comfort

Well..."theory" as a word is a bit of a problem, because its used "wrong" very often. And as it happens in language, if something is used "wrong" by most people most of the time, it eventually becomes "right". :D

And anyway ... Gravity for that matter isnt a theory either, its a law. (A generalisation, principle or pattern in nature) A theory is the explanation of these patterns. So, while there are some theories about gravity, the "pattern" itself, isnt a theory.

[Rhaegars Heir]

I think a very general point for the OP is that Oberyn poisoned Gregor with a purpose; I don't think he would have ever gave him a clean death during the trial, he wanted him to have to suffer through the poison. If anything he probably intended to just leave the trial once he got his confession

@Rhaegarsheir Since your being so blatantly dismissive of the Oberyn poisoned Tywin aspect of the theory, do you care to offer some insight into what Oberyn's plan was initially when he came to Kings Landing?

Is he seeing into the future and knows

1. Joffrey will be poisoned and

2.Tyrion will be put on trial and

3. Cersie would name Gregor as a champion?

Because its pretty clear Oberyn came to Kings Landing with an actual plan in place, (maybe your a show watcher who thinks he only came around to bang abuncha boys in girls in Kings Landing's ever unique Westorosi brothels?) so are you suggesting he just came to Kings Landing for shits and giggles or that he can see into the future? He tells Tyrion your father wont live forever and mentions a poison akin to what was happening to Tywin on the toilet before he dies.

On top of all the normally referenced points of how Tywin appeared poisoned and how Oberyn implies he would die, how he would benefit ect; I think Its much more important to

1. consider what his original plan was before the Purple Weddng, and to

2. piece together the facts that Oberyn wanted an immediate rebellion initially following Elia's murder, but after some convincing from Jon Arryn and presumably Doran, Oberyn decided to take a longer route and personally designed and witnessed the marriage pact for Arianne and Viserys as a means of planning a future rebellion all these years ago, and then its just coincidence that he shows up at KL acting recklessly shortly after Viserys' death?

one name one person who only watches the show who could tell u who rhaegar is 2 I've read every book numerous times including all the prequels 3 I don't have to rove anything I'm not making a claim those who say Oberyn poisoned Tywin have to prove that that's how making a claim work 4 I will say it doesn't make sense from a literarily point because if George was going to have Oberyn poison him that's how he would have died the whole hypothesis of Oberyn poisoning Tywin screams of being tacked on by readers who are bored in between books and are looking for something to speculate on it makes for better fanfic that actual story telling from GRRM

[Rhaegars Heir]

I think he just underestimated the mountain. And this is no shame.

The mountain is, to some degree a fantasy superhuman. (He is not as much "fantasy" as a dragon, but I would say, he isnt 100% "realistic" either.)

Well..."theory" as a word is a bit of a problem, because its used "wrong" very often. And as it happens in language, if something is used "wrong" by most people most of the time, it eventually becomes "right". :D

And anyway ... Gravity for that matter isnt a theory either, its a law. (A generalisation, principle or pattern in nature) A theory is the explanation of these patterns. So, while there are some theories about gravity, the "pattern" itself, isnt a theory.

not with words that have a very specific meaning like theory that are meant to be used in a very specific context which isn't the one you used I.e claim that a theory can't be proven because then it would be a fact which isn't how it work. also the "laws" of gravity are human assigned properties to an observed phenomenon which were theorized and test that doesn't make our current understanding of it less than theory which is the highest level any idea can achieve

[Mithras]

you have no idea what the word theory means a theory uses facts to prove a conclusion I.e gravity is a theory that has facts behind it to prove it's existence. did you learn you definition of theory from ken ham and ray comfort

I may have used a wrong word. I wanted to say that a theory in ASOIAF becomes canon when it is proved. I am also aware of the fact that some theories will never be confirmed although they are like 99.9% true.

The whole process of theorizing is very different in a fictional literary work and especially different for a writer like GRRM.

GRRM's universe is not a physical plane in which you can make some observations, obtain facts and try to come up with a theory to explain them and extrapolate your theory to predict the future.

First of all, the facts are of varying degrees. There are unreliable narrators. The characters are limited with their access to information or their own perceptive abilities. Information cannot be stored and transmitted without loss and even twist. Besides, there are many things the characters do not know and GRRM didnot reveal yet. And there are other things which the characters know but didnot recall in the story because they were not needed in the narrative so far.

Therefore, many "facts" in the series cannot be counted as true as the results of an observation in science. One can to come up with a scientific theory with such facts in the series. These facts are open to interpretation and many of these facts seem to be conflicting or not making sense. In fact, these facts are the cause of so many theories. Because the facts which are not so open to interpretation do not raise much questions.

So a theory of ASOIAF is basically an interpretation of some vague "facts" in the series to fill in the blanks.

GRRM uses foreshadowing. There is no equivalent of this in science.

"I demand trial by battle!”

Lord Tywin’s face was so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he’d drunk some poisoned wine as well.

One can ignore this and consider it as a figurative way of describing Tywin's distraught upon hearing Tyrion's choice of trial by combat.

However, one can also ask whether this is a clue for the readers to consider the possibility that Tywin was indeed poisoned. And one can look for other clues and see whether they can be interpreted to test the hypothesis that Tywin is poisoned.

The facts are facts. Everything is written in the pages but interpretations differ and yield to theories.

[Rhaegars Heir]

I may have used a wrong word. I wanted to say that a theory in ASOIAF becomes canon when it is proved. I am also aware of the fact that some theories will never be confirmed although they are like 99.9% true.

The whole process of theorizing is very different in a fictional literary work and especially different for a writer like GRRM.

GRRM's universe is not a physical plane in which you can make some observations, obtain facts and try to come up with a theory to explain them and extrapolate your theory to predict the future.

First of all, the facts are of varying degrees. There are unreliable narrators. The characters are limited with their access to information or their own perceptive abilities. Information cannot be stored and transmitted without loss and even twist. Besides, there are many things the characters do not know and GRRM didnot reveal yet. And there are other things which the characters know but didnot recall in the story because they were not needed in the narrative so far.

Therefore, many "facts" in the series cannot be counted as true as the results of an observation in science. One can to come up with a scientific theory with such facts in the series. These facts are open to interpretation and many of these facts seem to be conflicting or not making sense. In fact, these facts are the cause of so many theories. Because the facts which are not so open to interpretation do not raise much questions.

So a theory of ASOIAF is basically an interpretation of some vague "facts" in the series to fill in the blanks.

GRRM uses foreshadowing. There is no equivalent of this in science.

One can ignore this and consider it as a figurative way of describing Tywin's distraught upon hearing Tyrion's choice of trial by combat.

However, one can also ask whether this is a clue for the readers to consider the possibility that Tywin was indeed poisoned. And one can look for other clues and see whether they can be interpreted to test the hypothesis that Tywin is poisoned.

The facts are facts. Everything is written in the pages but interpretations differ and yield to theories.

and as I said before the whole Oberyn poisoning Tywin doesn't make sense from a literary stand point because if that was George's intention then that's what would of happened in the book instead of Tyrion killing him honestly this is creative writing 101 stuff. lastly no one is ignoring it we're taking it at face value which given the lack of evidence to the contrary is the only logical thing to do

[poggo]

not with words that have a very specific meaning like theory that are meant to be used in a very specific context which isn't the one you used I.e claim that a theory can't be proven because then it would be a fact which isn't how it work. also the "laws" of gravity are human assigned properties to an observed phenomenon which were theorized and test that doesn't make our current understanding of it less than theory which is the highest level any idea can achieve

I tend to agree with the first part, but if you want to be precise, then its also very important to remember, that in science there is no hierarchical structure in the words theory and law.

A law is not "better" than a theory. Its a different thing. Scientific Ideas dont have "levels" in this sense, although many people use these words in that context.

A law is a principle, pattern or generalisation. It can be used to, for exemple to calculate things. With the law of gravity, one can calculate a fly to the moon. Such a law can be very precise, but it doesnt have to be.

A theory on the other hand, would be the ideas, that explain *why* there is this pattern.

(So what newton found was the law of gravity... he in fact didnt have a theory about why this law existed)