Lord Petyr Reyne, the Valonqar?

[Skoboe]

For a while I was hung up on the idea that someone else was the Valonqar, but like all stubborn ideas it was probably a bad one.

This has been lurking around in my head for a while but it's starting to make sense...

There is not much known about LFs background...his great grandfather was supposedly a Bravosi sellsword, the Baelish's are newly landed gentry, very poor and on the shittiest piece of stony land in the fingers.

He has green/grey eyes and a flair for playing with gold.

It's popular belief that the Reynes of Castamere were obliterated by Tywin Lannister. But what if a couple of them survived? There are Targs popping up everywhere - distant relatives, direct relatives...even unknown relatives. Why would it be out of the question that there are still Reynes about?

Now if I were a Reyne, I'd be pretty pissed off. Both with what happened and with the fact that because of the slaughter, I couldn't identify myself to anyone as a Reyne, and I wouldn't find anyone willing to help, even covertly.

In comes Littlefinger. A guy from a very poor family, with no income from it's land, no bannermen, and not even a dedicated sigil (Head of the Titan, or a Mockingbird?). But he is very intelligent, very articulate, knows how to manipulate Kings and Kingdoms - how would he have learnt all this while tripping over rocks on The Fingers?

The green/grey eyes are mentioned a number of times. The Lannisters typically have green eyes...the Reynes were bannermen to the Lannisters, and by the sound of it tried to be Lannisters. There's a high chance that at some point, or multiple points, Lannisters and Reyne married.

When you step back and look at the things LF has done, you could draw the conclusion that he is hell-bent on bringing down the Lannisters, but only on his terms.

Stannis figured out the Baratheon Brats real lineage and informed Jon Arryn...LF convinces Lysa to poison him. Ned Stark follows it up, LF betrays him. If either Hand could have proven to Robert that J+C = J, M & T then it would have been the end of the Lannisters.

But this would have denied LF his grand revenge for House Reyne.

Instead, LF goes about setting the Lannisters up in every way he can;

Convincing Lysa to send the letter to WF claiming the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn.

Lying about the dagger, saying it was Tyrion's.

He takes Ned to the brothel to show him one of Robert's bastards, when Jaime turns up right on cue.

He knowingly plunged the realm into massive debt, borrowing heavily from the Lannisters and knowing full-well it could not be paid back.

He befriends Tyrion, who soon after sends Myrcella to Dorne.

He installed the Kettlebacks.

He brought in the dwarf jousters, knowing that Tyrion and Joffery would have some conflict, just before Joffery is poisoned.

He gives the Lannisters a fake Arya...sure to enrage the North further against the Lannisters.

He is now in cahoots with two strong houses that hold no love for the Lannisters (Arryn and Tyrell)

I think we'll see more of LFs machination come to fruition in the next two books. But as for his other 'games', one of his own quotes is "Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game."

The Valonqar bit? The Reynes mimicked the Lannisters; they were the second richest house in the Seven Kingdoms, their Sigil was a reverse of the Lannisters, they called themselves Lions, but in The Rains of Castamere they are referred to as cats.

You could almost say that House Reyne was/is House Lannisters 'little brother'.

[OberynBlackfyre]

crack. pot. where is that pot thou ist cracketh!?!?

[Skoboe]

crack. pot. where is that pot thou ist cracketh!?!?

You either read VERY fast, or you just read the post title :cool4:

[OberynBlackfyre]

You either read VERY fast, or you just read the post title :cool4:

truthfully I read half haha

I follow the path that you're taking me on, but when we get to the forest I get a little sketchy.

Littlefinger hasn't ONLY targeted the Lannisters, he pretty much accomplished the death of the Starks by starting the war

[Skoboe]

Littlefinger hasn't ONLY targeted the Lannisters, he pretty much accomplished the death of the Starks by starting the war

Yep - and that's why he's such an evil little man...he doesn't care who or what he destroys in the process of bringing down the Lannisters. The war has nearly killed the Starks, yes, but that war has the Lannisters at the centre.

[MotherMerciless]

I do appreciate the theory, and the work/ thought you put into it.

I think Petyr as he is, without that theory as a background fits in pretty well too. Meaning he doesn't need an intricate secret story to be the bastard that he already is.

The only thing that I feel is a bit of a stretch is the Reyne= Lannister Valonqar bit.

[Fae Boleyn]

truthfully I read half haha

I follow the path that you're taking me on, but when we get to the forest I get a little sketchy.

Littlefinger hasn't ONLY targeted the Lannisters, he pretty much accomplished the death of the Starks by starting the war

Well, he's got a different beef with the Starks, why not a two-for-one?

That aside, I highly doubt he's the valonqar, but... His father was the least of little lords, or some such, I believe was said; not a bad candidate to marry if you belong to a House marked for destruction and you want to hide. I think he could definitely be a half-Reyne on his mother's side; we know only the barest information about the Baelish family, none at all about his mother. As MotherMerciless said, he works just fine as is, without any twists, but being half-Reyne and wanting some payback is certainly not impossible.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

LF comes from the fingers, I know it can be a make up story, but, he was probably known there, to be appointed as ward of Riverrun.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The timing is all wrong. His Grandfather fought in the battle of the Nine Kings which is around the time the Reynes were destroyed and his Great grandfather, the Bravoosi, would be around before the conflict and have no reason to either a)distance himself from the main branch and b) pretend to be someone else.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Fun theory, but would LF really strangle Cersei? He does like to let others do his dirty work for him. Although I do think it's possible that the choking part is not necessarily literal and she could imbibe the strangler and die like her son.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

The timing is all wrong. His Grandfather fought in the battle of the Nine Kings which is around the time the Reynes were destroyed and his Great grandfather, the Bravoosi, would be around before the conflict and have no reason to either a)distance himself from the main branch and b) pretend to be someone else.

True, but we know nothing about the female line leading to LF.

I'm not convinced on the ballon war part. But LF as a Renye combined with his desire to bring down Ned (because he still thinks if he can just beat the stark Cat will see how awesome he is and regret her choice.) exsplains a lot of his actions.

Not convinced but I like it

[Steve Stark]

Interesting for sure. But Baelish is an irritatingly intelligent little man, unfortunately. While I could see him being part Reynes as someone else mentioned, I don't see him being only after the Lannisters. There seems to be more to him than that. After all, Ed's bro beat him up and left him with a scar in front of the woman he loved, and he lost his prize (Cat). I think that changed him, and he probably vowed to himself that he'd never lose his prize again.

On the same note, I'm not completely against him being a Reynes and looking for revenge against the Lannisters. I could easily enjoy watching Cersei die, although I'd prefer it if Tyrion could survive. And I honestly thing the Rains of Castamere and that whole Reynes story was a plot device to make the Lannisters that much more feared/evil.

That being said, I hope someone shanks LF real real good, nice and slow. I hate that bastard. Walder, Baelish, and Cersei can all burn in the same hell as far as I'm concerned...

[Skoboe]

After all, Ed's bro beat him up and left him with a scar in front of the woman he loved, and he lost his prize (Cat). I think that changed him, and he probably vowed to himself that he'd never lose his prize again.

That incident, and him being declared too low born for Hoster to even consider him as a suitor, may have been the catalyst; the point in LFs life where he said 'fuck you all, I'll show you who I really am'

[James Arryn]

I think Varys has contributed far more to the Lannisters' downfall than Littlefinger. Could it be Varys Tarbeck?

[Lord_Tyrell]

About as Crackpot as it gets. Littlefinger's motives and personality are very well established, as is his vendetta. He has nothing personal against the Lannisters, it's the Starks and the Tullys he means to destroy. Littlefinger trying to take on Brandon really changed him and his worldview entirely.

Littlefinger manipulates the Lannisters because they're a powder keg of a house just waiting to go off and they've also got a personal vendetta against the Starks who are always allied with the Tullys. He has a illegitimate king, the queen and her Kingsguard are fucking and also brother and sister, and a House that is so bullheaded that they won't ever stand for this. Littlefinger couldn't have asked for better fodder to start a war. Half of your evidence of him having a personal vendetta against the Lannisters delves from this, and the other half is to do directly with Tyrion, someone Littlefinger fears and knows that he's really the only person who can possibly stop his plans.

Its very clear that the Starks and the Tullys are his crown jewels on the houses he wants to bring down, and in his mind, he's completely succeeded. His goal is made pretty clear in AFFC to get Sansa all the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale, with him being the true ruler of them. He would see it as the ultimate insult to them. He's now Lord of the Riverlands, and soon he'll be the unofficial Lord of Winterfell, and he continues to piss on both houses graves by manipulating Cat in miniature form.

Littlefinger's plan now is going North not South, to where the Lannisters are of little concern to him in his grand scheme. Littlefinger's long term plan is to destroy all the great houses for sure, but it's nothing personal against the Lannisters, they're just guilty by association. He will certainly betray Cersei (I think by taking out the Freys and leaving her with no Northern allies), but he knows in the longterm she will personally do more damage to the Lannisters than he himself could do, so he's content with allowing them to fall on their own and see where the dice lands. If Littlefinger's goal were to destroy the Lannisters and not the Starks/Tullys or the system as a whole, I think he would have taken a more hands on approach with taking down the Lannisters.

Plus if you're right, Littlefinger would have allied himself with Ned when he tried to unseat Joffrey. The theory makes little sense.

[jet199]

Looks-wise LF is more like a secret Reed than anything (and the Reeds are all secret Targs).

However the problem for me is LF getting Lysa to poison Jon Arryn which was an act defending the Lannisters. However I haven't seen a reason put forward for that act which has convinced me yet.

[Queen Alienor]

I'm not really sold on it, but it is an interesting thought. LF is such a confusing man, you never really know with him. And it's true that we don't know much about his family, so why not?

[Lord_Tyrell]

Looks-wise LF is more like a secret Reed than anything (and the Reeds are all secret Targs).

However the problem for me is LF getting Lysa to poison Jon Arryn which was an act defending the Lannisters. However I haven't seen a reason put forward for that act which has convinced me yet.

Pretty easy: Lure Ned down to King's Landing to kill him and start a war with the Lannisters. He needed Ned in King's Landing, so he also manipulated Cat into sending Ned down there by having Lysa send the letter.

[jet199]

Pretty easy: Lure Ned down to King's Landing to kill him and start a war with the Lannisters. He needed Ned in King's Landing, so he also manipulated Cat into sending Ned down there by having Lysa send the letter.

But no one thought Robert would ask Ned to be Hand. Unless that decision was LF's idea planted in Robert's head. I will have to have a read.

[Lord_Tyrell]

But no one thought Robert would ask Ned to be Hand. Unless that decision was LF's idea planted in Robert's head. I will have to have a read.

Everyone thought Robert would ask Ned to be Hand, but no one thought Ned would accept it. Hence LF making sure Lysa sent the letter.