Manderly the likely best equipped and trained levies in the north, Pre-WOT5K?

[The Frosted King]

Just due to wealth on hand, and knightly cultural customs?

The description of the men at arms in White Harbor vs the men of Winterfell is jarring.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

woah

this is going to open a whole can of worms, the South is mostly wealthier and also has knightly cultural customs does this mean they are stronger than the North...

[The Fallen]

` It's possible. They have to be way more wealthy than the other northern houses. Which along with their southron culture, customs and traditions should make for knights that are well-equipped and well-stooped in knightly culture. Thus making his guards and knights some of the best.

However, they didn't do the greatest job protecting Wyman Manderly from Hosteen Frey.

[Tywin Manderly]

However, they didn't do the greatest job protecting Wyman Manderly from Hosteen Frey.

The Manderly knights were unarmed, contrary to Hosteen Frey and his men. Hosteen Frey also attacked by surprise.

[Lucky Shield]

I really do not believe so ...

1) I think the series a partly at fault for making the northmen wear - what looks like flimsy armour - in comparison to the Lannisters' heavy armour.

2) IIRC in GOT, Master Luwin tells Bran (and it's implied he's told him a whole bunch of times) that the men in the north are by no means less deadly or valorous than the men in the south. They might even get a lot more training than the men in the south because of the susceptibility of wildling raids. The consequence of these raids are that most levies are very likely better equipped for warfare than those from the south.

3) Their fighting tactics may fundamentally differ from those in the south.

Bron for example, is never heavily armoured and relies on speed (well demonstrated against Vardis Egen)

Northmen are much more keen on axes (as were vikings), an offensive weapon that relies on constant aggressiveness and stamina. Heavy armour would weaken the effectiveness of such a weapon.

4) I'd also speculate that the southerners often complain that the north is no place for them. They dislike the area and the North is often said to be a tough place to live in, a fit northener might easily be stronger than the average southerner.

Edit : corrected Egen's name

[Raven in Winter]

I really do not believe so ...

1) I think the series a partly at fault for making the northmen wear - what looks like flimsy armour - in comparison to the Lannisters' heavy armour.

2) IIRC in GOT, Master Luwin tells Bran (and it's implied he's told him a whole bunch of times) that the men in the north are by no means less deadly or valorous than the men in the south. They might even get a lot more training than the men in the south because of the susceptibility of wildling raids. The consequence of these raids are that most levies are very likely better equipped for warfare than those from the south.

3) Their fighting tactics may fundamentally differ from those in the south.

Bron for example, is never heavily armoured and relies on speed (well demonstrated against Vardis Egen)

Northmen are much more keen on axes (as were vikings), an offensive weapon that relies on constant aggressiveness and stamina. Heavy armour would weaken the effectiveness of such a weapon.

4) I'd also speculate that the southerners often complain that the north is no place for them. They dislike the area and the North is often said to be a tough place to live in, a fit northener might easily be stronger than the average southerner.

Edit : corrected Egen's name

Well realisticly only knights would be wearing heavy armor, your ordinary foot soldiers would be wearing chain at best. Of course this isss a fantasy after all.

[Lucky Shield]

Well realisticly only knights would be wearing heavy armor, your ordinary foot soldiers would be wearing chain at best. Of course this isss a fantasy after all.

> In the series, all lannisters are wearing heavy armour tough, so GRRM must not have a problem with footmen wearing the armour ;)

[Raven in Winter]

> In the series, all lannisters are wearing heavy armour tough, so GRRM must not have a problem with footmen wearing the armour ;)

Really? I know in the TV show all the Lannister soldiers are equipped with that sweet samurai-ish armor, but I don't remember the text describing them as all wearing heavy plate. Can someone find a passage stating this?

[spinelladude]

This is a topic for lengthy conjecture and implication. I would imply that as White Harbor is a city, one of the few in all of Westeros, and comparing it to how the Lannisters were able to raise a few hosts from the 'dregs' of Lannisport, another city, that Manderly has a potentially large reservoir of men to equip to fight for him if need be, with food and money being the payment he can offer to his new levies. This is something that can't be done anywhere else in the north as it is sparsely populated, but as for the best trained, IMO, is very unlikely. From Davos's point of view, we know that Manderly is taking in some men for training, but if you take in a lot of men in a short amount of time and throw them on the battlefield, their training is inadequate. This is all I got so far.

[Djinn]

Better equiped? Sure, they are likely the wealthiest House in the North. Better trained is more uncertain, since Umbers, Karstarks, Mormonts, Norreys have to contend with regular Wilding/Ironborn attacks, so alot more practice oportunities. As for the knight traditions, most of the South has that in abundance and that didn't made much of a diference. Knights aren't the only martial tradition there is, you know.

[Minstral]

Really? I know in the TV show all the Lannister soldiers are equipped with that sweet samurai-ish armor, but I don't remember the text describing them as all wearing heavy plate. Can someone find a passage stating this?

To the best of my knowledge the soldiers that came for Syrio and Arya are described as if they are in chain mail. I doubt infantry is running around in plate.

[Tywin Manderly]

A knight of the Kingsguard stood beneath the arch of the door with five Lannister guardsmen arrayed behind him. He was in full armor, but his visor was up. Arya remembered his droopy eyes and rustcolored whiskers from when he had come to Winterfell with the king: Ser Meryn Trant. The red cloaks wore mail shirts over boiled leather and steel caps with lion crests. "Arya Stark," the knight said, "come with us, child."

To the best of my knowledge the soldiers that came for Syrio and Arya are described as if they are in chain mail. I doubt infantry is running around in plate.

Indeed.

[Fightbringer]

probably best equipped house in the north given how wyman manderly is the wealthiest lord in the north, best trained is another matter i suppose, as westeros works off a levies system, and how well trained can levies, who aren't professional soldiers, be? Just because they dont have knights in the north, it doesnt mean that they dont have men who perform exactly the same function. These men would have exactly the same level of equipment, training and power in society as if they were knights. If White Harbour men are better fighters, either individually or as a collective it most likely isnt down to the fact that a lot of them are knights, and more to do with the wealth of the Manderly's ]

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Best equipped, certainly, thanks to the wealth of White Harbour. Best trained? Not likely, by and large there is barely any distinction by region, only by class.

Well realisticly only knights would be wearing heavy armor, your ordinary foot soldiers would be wearing chain at best. Of course this isss a fantasy after all.

Chainmail was actually more expensive than plate :cool4:

[Raven in Winter]

To the best of my knowledge the soldiers that came for Syrio and Arya are described as if they are in chain mail. I doubt infantry is running around in plate.

Exactly. Fielding an army entirely in plate would be ridiculously expensive.

[Max of Castamere]

probably better equipt because they have more money and people to make armor, but not necessarily better trained.

[Raven in Winter]

Chainmail was actually more expensive than plate :cool4:

Really? Everything I've ever read about plate armor stated that only wealthy knights could afford it. Why would chain be more expensive? Probably takes more time to make than plate but you are using less material. I'm not trying to be jerkish, but I have never heard that chain was more expensive than plate, but I'm not an expert so I am genuinely curious and open to learning something new :).

[E-Ro]

Really? Everything I've ever read about plate armor stated that only wealthy knights could afford it. Why would chain be more expensive? Probably takes more time to make than plate but you are using less material. I'm not trying to be jerkish, but I have never heard that chain was more expensive than plate, but I'm not an expert so I am genuinely curious and open to learning something new :).

Yes, you are clearly not an expert on the subject. But its common misconception. Mail is just as expensive as plate, and it became MORE expensive in the later 1500s when plate became mass produced for large units(like the spanish tercios) I should also add this whole thing of mail being lesser protection for poorer troops is nonsense. Mail is excellent protection and its nigh on invulnerable to slashes, and really great against arrows. There are numerous accounts during the crusades of knights with multiple arrows sticking out of them fighting on as if nothing had happened to them. The poorer troops will have padded jacks, with maybe some bits of mail or plate here and there. But nothing like a fully articulated suite of plate or a full hauberk of mail. And the poorest will have just the padded jack and nothing else.

[Raven in Winter]

Yes, you are clearly not an expert on the subject. But its common misconception. Mail is just as expensive as plate, and it became MORE expensive in the later 1500s when plate became mass produced for large units(like the spanish tercios)

Lol well I stand corrected!

[E-Ro]

Lol well I stand corrected!

Well its an honest mistake and one that I understand. The idea of mail as low quality protection is all over the place(Hollywood, games, fantasy novels etc.) But it simply isn't true.

To contribute to the thread, and stay on topic. I would say that manderly has the best equipped men as a result of his wealth. As for the best trained, no i dont think so. The training from retinue to retinue is the same regardless of wealth, what would increase as a result of money is the SIZE of the retinue, not its training quality.