Which characters would ve crossed the line Daenerys did in Astapor killing all the slavers older than 13? Part 2!

[TheMysteriousOne]

http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/09/mariah-carey-clap.gif

Thank you ;)

[aceluby]

Youre forgetting that slavery is legal in this city so they've done nothing wrong. Dany simply executes them all because she dosn't want to pay for her slaves.

Being illegal and being wrong are two different things.

Someone proposed a community service, a month ago. :) Like work in sewers.

On a serious note, I don't know. Murderers have to be executed, of course. Not only those involved in training of Unsullied, but also all other slaves and slavers accused of murder, after a fair trial with witnesses and whatnot.

Fair trial? Have you even READ these books? lol Dany gave them as fair of a trial as anyone else has gotten.

[EstEst]

<...>

Fair trial? Have you even READ these books? lol Dany gave them as fair of a trial as anyone else has gotten.

No, she did not, by any standards. She didn't even tell them that they're accused of something. Just had them killed.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Not many characters would give a shit about suffering slaves from another culture.

None of the Iron born would care

Certainly Tywin wouldn't care about them.

Stannis upholds current law, he wouldn't care as long as training and selling Unsullied is done outside of his realm and his laws.

Ned Stark is one of the only ones I can picture doing anything out of care for the slaves.

[Kungsmurfen]

This is a horrible defense. According to themselves they've done nothing wrong.

I'm saying that the simple owning of a slave is nothing wrong according to their laws. Therefor many good people who dosn't deserve to die will own slaves and get executed for it without a chance to even change their minds about slavery. I think that's wrong.

Edit: @aceluby: I guess this works as a reply for you too.

[El Guapo]

No, she did not, by any standards. She didn't even tell them that they're accused of something. Just had them killed.

Well she could have taken him to the Vale and had a six year old decide whether or not they were guilty and deserved to plunge to their death from 600 feet. In between sucking on his mothers teats of course.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Well she could have taken him to the Vale and had a six year old decide whether or not they were guilty and deserved to plunge to their death from 600 feet. In between sucking on his mothers teats of course.

Or get two goons to fight it out and let the Gods determine guilt or innocence.

Though it would be pretty great to put one of the oh so innocent peace loving Tokar wearers against Selmy.

[RoamingRonin]

I'm saying that the simple owning of a slave is nothing wrong according to their laws. Therefor many good people who dosn't deserve to die will own slaves and get executed for it without a chance to even change their minds about slavery. I think that's wrong.

Edit: @aceluby: I guess this works as a reply for you too.

These people are aware of slavery and all of its horrors. Dany would not be able to convince them otherwise.

[LordStoneheart]

I'm saying that the simple owning of a slave is nothing wrong according to their laws. Therefor many good people who dosn't deserve to die will own slaves and get executed for it without a chance to even change their minds about slavery. I think that's wrong.

Edit: @aceluby: I guess this works as a reply for you too.

Good people don't own other people.

[cade]

In ADwD, we see several non-slavers wearing tokars:

- Green Grace (who is a priestess, not a slaver);

- Skahaz who I think was not a slaver, at least after he accepted Dany's ruling;

- Reznak of whom I can say the same;

- Danaerys herself.

Moreover, when Green Grace talks Danaerys into wearing tokar, one of her arguments is that it's a traditional garment of Giskari nobles, and "Meereen's queen must be a lady of Old Ghis". (Note: Lady, not Slave trader or Slaver.)

The phrase "That's a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power" I read as "It's very inconvenient for any labor except for doing nothing", not as "It's a garment specifically purposed for the slave traders"

The phrase says "a master's garment."

Lady and slaver aren't mutually exclusive.

Please provide evidence that the Green Grace, Skahaz and Reznak owned no slaves before Dany outlawed the practice. As for afterward and Dany herself wearing one, it's made explicitly clear that this was an olive branch on Dany's part to help heal the city.

In all of ASoIaF, we're never told of a non-slave owner wearing a tokar in a city where slavery is legal.

I only answered in this talk about tokars because someone posted that no-one except slavers was demonstrated to wear it.

No, I said "In all of ASoS no one outside of slavers and their women is depicted wearing a tokar," which is a fact.

Youre forgetting that slavery is legal in this city so they've done nothing wrong.

Wow. It's usually hyperbole to say that Dany detractors defend slavery, but you literally just said slavery isn't wrong if a city decrees it legal.

I really think that if dany wanted those free unsullied she could have just killed the guys she was dealing with to get them. She did not have to kill everyone above the age of 13 for it.

Nor did she. I denounce her orders, but let's be clear about what they were. She said to slay Good Masters, soldiers and men wearing a tokar or holding a whip, and it's not clear at all that this even extended beyond the plaza, especially since some Good Masters are said to have survived. It's possible they were gone, hid or fled during the attack, but there's no indication that Dany is upset or surprised by their survival.

[Kungsmurfen]

These people are aware of slavery and all of its horrors. Dany would not be able to convince them otherwise.

I don't care if she could or couldn't convince anyone. Of course the people are aware of slavery but there's still people who might have listened and it still dosn't justify killing them all without warning for something that wasn't wrong five minutes ago.

Good people don't own other people.

Again. I'm not arguing for slavery here. I'm telling you that slavery is legal and compleatly natural thing in this city. It dosn't make them bad people because it's how they've been raised they actually believe this is how the world works and they know it's what makes their city prosper. To them it would be like you're killing all who's known to drink alot without warning because according to you good men dosn't drink. It's a different civilization that dosn't look at the issue as we do. If she at least gave them a chance to give up their slavery I might have actually respected her. Instead she kills them all for being wrong according to her worldview without any warning.

[Kungsmurfen]

Wow. It's usually hyperbole to say that Dany detractors defend slavery, but you literally just said slavery isn't wrong if a city decrees it legal.

I have to agree that my wording isn't the best and I apologise if anyone took it as me defending slavery. My point is that the people of Astapor dosn't understand it is wrong because it is as it's always been. You can't just kill them all for being wrong without giving them a chance to understand what's wrong with their worldview.

[Jory Cassel]

I certainly can't consider every slave-owner in history to be someone who deserved to be killed out of hand. Would we really argue that Themistocles, Cicero, Augustus, George Washington all deserved death for owning slaves?

While I don't consider death an adequate general punishment for slavery, above all because I reject the death penalty as a means of punishment, I'd find it hard to condemn a slave for killing a slave owner, regardless of political or cultural importance of the latter.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I think there are few questions that we have to consider, and I think answering these questions will help us understand the opinions of posters on both sides.

1) Are people who own slaves always morally culpable, even if they grew up in such a society that promoted the owning of slaves?

2) Is a slave justified in killing his/her master(s), for the sake of freedom?

3) Should a person be killed on the basis of slave ownership?

4) Is it morally acceptable for an 'outsider' to disrupt a society, even if the society seems to be morally corrupt?

5) Does Daenerys legitimately care about the slaves in Slaver's Bay?

[Kungsmurfen]

I think these are some great questions actually :)

My answers to them are:

1.) No. Not always. Kids are easily affected by what's going on around them and does their parents own a slave chances are very slim that the child won't own one too. As said on here thirteen year olds were owning slaves. The entire Slaver's Bay economy is relying on slaves and I think it's very hard to blame one who grew up with slavery for owning a slave since their entire culture is relying on slaves.

2.) In most cases I find killing for freedom is justified or at the very least understandable. The only exceptions are when people willingly give themselves into slavery. Then I'm not sure.

3.) No.

4.) Thanks for explaining. Yes I think it's acceptable for an outsider to disrupt a seemingly immoral society. They might have a harder time doing since the locals might not trust them but they should still be allowed to try to make a change.

5.) I think she have sympathy for them but I'm very unsure if she actually cares for the slaves freedom as much as she says she do.

[TheMysteriousOne]

4.) I'm sorry but I don't really understand this question. :/ (If it asks if what Dany did is right then my answer is no. If it asks if it can be done by an outsider in a better way then yes I beleve so but it will probably be hard to do.)

I'm not talking about Dany in particular, I'm asking if you think that it is morally correct for an 'outsider', that is someone not of that culture or society, to come in and disrupt a seemingly immoral society. I'm asking this because I've seen arguments (which are in my opinion, incorrect) which argue that an outsider should not be allowed to make changes to a society, solely because they are not from there.

[James Arryn]

Good people don't own other people.

The vast majority of human beings in history owned or were owned as slaves. It was absolutely endemic in human history. It is only relatively recently that slavery has been regarded by most as morally wrong.

If a thousand years from now humanity has decided that killing plants is evil, are we all now bad people?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Very convenient that slave owners saw slavery as necessary and not morally wrong.

Slaves throughout history might have had a different opinion, unless of course you Unsully them into a complete brainwashing.

[cade]

I have to agree that my wording isn't the best and I apologise if anyone took it as me defending slavery. My point is that the people of Astapor dosn't understand it is wrong because it is as it's always been. You can't just kill them all for being wrong without giving them a chance to understand what's wrong with their worldview.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I agree that the city's indoctrination of people into slaving should've been considered a mitigating (but not absolving) factor. Except in self-defense, no slaver should've been killed without a trial, but just as slavers were taught to enslave and didn't think they were wrong, Dany was taught "fire and blood." Her only kin taught her to accept slavery, too, as did her chief advisor, her husband and the Dothraki culture she was inculcated in, yet somehow she still realized it's wrong and fought against it.

[James Arryn]

Very convenient that slave owners saw slavery as necessary and not morally wrong.

Slaves throughout history might have had a different opinion.

Actually, not really.

Most slave societies that allowed any transference of status record that former slaves bought and sold slaves just as often as those who had never been slaves. Again, because slavery was everywhere, it wasn't regarded the way we see it now. The alternative for most was a version of serfdom, remember.