Which characters would ve crossed the line Daenerys did in Astapor killing all the slavers older than 13? Part 2!

[Nictarion]

Ordering a murder is very different from turning a blind eye to murder. Robert did allow the kids a free reign in Essos as long as they didn't bother him. Don't see him ordering a massacre. He is famous for being generous to his enemies.

They only got that free reign because Darry got them away from Dragonstone, otherwise they would have had similar fates to Aegon and Rhaenys.

[Gwydden]

Naturally, slavery dependant economies have a god given right to continue making money off the backs of slaves.

Naturally, feudalistic economies have a god given right to continue making money off the backs of serfs.

Naturally, capitalist economies have a god given right to continue making money off the backs of workers.

Naturally, we live in a perfect world and modern standards should be used to judge every society that's ever existed everywhere.

Naturally, making the economy of an entire continent collapse because you don't have a bloody idea of what you're doing is better than allowing cultures to develop by themselves.

[El Guapo]

It's kind of funny that of the three arguable "protagonists" of ASoIaF (Jon, Dany and Tyrion) only Jon has managed to keep a clean, evil acts free record so far. My opinion on the slaughter of the 163 slavers is based on two very basic facts:

That is why Jon is boring.

[Gwydden]

That is why Jon is boring.

I never argued otherwise.

[cade]

That only means Daenerys managed to screw entire continents up, each with lots of civilizations which depended on slavery for their existence. Good job, Dany!

Any civlization that practices slavery is already screwed up and should face a revolution, but my post was referring to sovereign territories that are against slavery, like the Lhazareen and Missandei's island of Naath (where she says people are so peaceful they don't even eat meat), from which slavers abducted her and her three brothers, turning them into unsullied.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Naturally, feudalistic economies have a god given right to continue making money off the backs of slaves.

Naturally, capitalist economies have a god given right to continue making money off the backs of the proletariat.

Naturally, we live in a perfect world and modern standards should be used to judge every society that's ever existed everywhere.

Naturally, making the economy of an entire continent collapese because you don't have a bloody idea of what you're doing is better than allowing cultures to develop by themselves.

Let slavery happen so across the world people can sip their wine without being inconvenienced?

If you want to bring it modern day, I will happily fuk up the USA economy if it means people in Africa don't have to be Warlord slaves. But I guess iPhones and Walmart are way too important to some people.

[MotherAnduin]

They only got that free reign because Darry got them away from Dragonstone, otherwise they would have had similar fates to Aegon and Rhaenys.

That is debatable. Jon Arryn and Stannis would have convinced Robert to spare them. We don't know what Robert ordered Stannis to do. Also, Robert wasn't particularly bothered by them seeing as he ordered Stannis to build a fleet to get Dragonstone instead of ordering the Redwyne Fleet to ferry them across. He allowed the Targs many months in which Dany was born. During this time, Robert got married and did things other than caring about the Targaryens.

[Gwydden]

Any civlization that practices slavery is already screwed up and should face a revolution, but my post was referring to sovereign territories that are against slavery, like the Lhazareen and Missandei's island of Naath (where she says people are so peaceful they don't even eat meat), from which slavers abducted her and her three brothers, turning them into unsullied.

If slavery hadn't ever existed, we'd likely still be making bad drawings in the walls of caves. There comes a point when slavery becomes obsolete, and the system falls apart by itself, often with the assistance of the ruling elite. And the damage caused by Daenerys by foolishly trying to abolish it without the slightest idea of how to replace that system is far greater than any the system itself caused.

Let slavery happen so across the world people can sip their wine without being inconvenienced?

If you want to bring it modern day, I will happily fuk up the USA economy if it means people in Africa don't have to be Warlord slaves. But I guess iPhones and Walmart are way too important to some people.

Actually, I was arguing exactly the opposite, that we kept modern issues away from this discussion. And I strongly disagree with you. I don't believe it is the responsability of the people in first world countries to sacrifice their commodities just so people in poorer countries might live slightly better. Their situation it's not anyone's fault and progress shouldn't be halted just in the name of arbitrary "fairness".

And who said anything about letting slavery happen?

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

TheMysteriousOne, on 15 Nov 2013 - 6:15 PM, said:

4) Is it morally acceptable for an 'outsider' to disrupt a society, even if the society seems to be morally corrupt?

This question has never been adequately answered. Maybe it never will be. The parallels between Dany "liberating" Slaver's Bay and the US "liberating" Iraq are clear, despite the fact that ASOS was written before the war. Dany saw that the current regime was brutal and oppressive and put a stop to it. Yet things didn't get better in Iraq, nor did they in Slaver's Bay.

The US intervened in Iraq but hasn't in North Korea. Why? Because for a number of reasons intervening in North Korea would be incredibly difficult and inconvenient. From a purely political standpoint (I'm not downplaying any life lost) invading Iraq was easy.

Is it more moral to leave Kim Jong Un in power despite the massive suffering in North Korea or would intervening be worse. Would it have been more moral to leave Slaver's Bay as is or did Dany do the right thing by stopping slavery even at the cost of so many lives?

There aren't any easy answers. I think this is why Dany is such a polarizing and controversial character. I also think this makes her arc one of the most interesting and thought provoking. I really don't understand why so many find her chapters boring and annoying.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Actually, I was arguing exactly the opposite, that we kept modern issues away from this discussion. And I strongly disagree with you. I don't believe it is the responsability of the people in first world countries to sacrifice their commodities just so people in poorer countries might live slightly better. Their situation it's not anyone's fault and progress shouldn't be halted just in the name of arbitrary "fairness".

Did you not say that Danys meddling in slavery messed up the economy of many continents?

The USA economy is dependent on slavery and near slavery type conditions across the world.

This doesn't make me throw away my iPhone but I won't be mad if somebody messes up our economy because they were trying to free people across the world from slave labor

[Gwydden]

Did you not say that Danys meddling in slavery messed up the economy of many continents?

The USA economy is dependent on slavery and near slavery type conditions across the world.

This doesn't make me throw away my iPhone but I won't be mad if somebody messes up our economy because they were trying to free people across the world from slave labor

I have stressed many times that modern day conditions are very different from those a couple hundred years ago or even less. Today I'm all for eliminating slavery everywhere, since there are viable alternatives and ways to implement them available at every hand. The same cannot be say of the world of ASoIaF.

And are you honestly saying that if you were forced to live in extreme poverty in the name of equality you won't be mad? That the slaves and freemen who had perfectly comfortable lives in Slaver's Bay before Dany arrived and lost everything with her invasion, loved ones, comfort and homes, should actually cheered her because hey, now everyone's free!

[Nictarion]

That is debatable. Jon Arryn and Stannis would have convinced Robert to spare them.

Doubtful. As long as they were alive, and in Westeros they were a threat to him. And his hatrid for Rhaegar would probably factor in to what he would do with them.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I have stressed many times that modern day conditions are very different from those a couple hundred years ago or even less. Today I'm all for eliminating slavery everywhere, since there are viable alternatives and ways to implement them available at every hand. The same cannot be say of the world of ASoIaF.

And are you honestly saying that if you were forced to live in extreme poverty in the name of equality you won't be mad? That the slaves and freemen who had perfectly comfortable lives in Slaver's Bay before Dany arrived and lost everything with her invasion, loved ones, comfort and homes, should actually cheered her because hey, now everyone's free!

I won't be happy about going back to poverty but I'd feel like the biggest douche in the world if I wished for the good ole days when slaves were providing me with a cushy lifestyle.

I don't think anybody should have some god given right to maintain their lifestyle at any cost.

[MotherAnduin]

Doubtful. As long as they were alive, and in Westeros they were a threat to him. And his hatrid for Rhaegar would probably factor in to what he would do with them.

So was Balon and yet, he lived. There is no indication that he would have killed the Targaryens. He didn't have the spine to do it. Anyways, we digress, no Astaporis raped Lyanna or ordered Robert and Ned's head on a spike. Robert wouldn't order a massacre.

[Gwydden]

I won't be happy about going back to poverty but I'd feel like the biggest douche in the world if I wished for the good ole days when slaves were providing me with a cushy lifestyle.

Are we talking about today's world or ASoIaF? I hope it's the latter, and that we can keep the former out of this discussion from now on. I would very much appreciate it.

Firstly, it's not just slavers. There are slaves who were better off before Dany arrived (remember Xaro's dancers? Daenerys would have them dig holes. Do you think they would actually go for that?), there were poor freemen who were better off before she arrived (pretty much anyone in Astapor), and yes, slavers were definitely in a better situation when she was not around. But what makes the "rights" of slavers less important than those of others?

Secondly, it's not just that slavery provides for a few. It keeps the entire society standing and moving forward. Slavery allows cultures to move beyond slavery, and into ever improving conditions for the general populace, rich and poor both.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Gwydden, on 15 Nov 2013 - 9:31 PM, said:

I have stressed many times that modern day conditions are very different from those a couple hundred years ago or even less. Today I'm all for eliminating slavery everywhere, since there are viable alternatives and ways to implement them available at every hand. The same cannot be say of the world of ASoIaF.

And are you honestly saying that if you were forced to live in extreme poverty in the name of equality you won't be mad? That the slaves and freemen who had perfectly comfortable lives in Slaver's Bay before Dany arrived and lost everything with her invasion, loved ones, comfort and homes, should actually cheered her because hey, now everyone's free!

There's enough food produced to feed everyone in the world. The vast amount of wealth in the world is in the hands of the few. Arguably there is enough wealth and enough natural resources for everybody to have their basic needs met.

All we need is to get rid of greed and the lust for power. Simple, right? :ohwell:

[Gwydden]

There's enough food produced to feed everyone in the world. The vast amount of wealth in the world is in the hands of the few. Arguably there is enough wealth and enough natural resources for everybody to have their basic needs met.

All we need is to get rid of greed and the lust for power. Simple, right? :ohwell:

Are you suggesting taking the wealth of the few away from them in order to distribute it more evenly?

That's not nice.

[Nictarion]

So was Balon and yet, he lived. There is no indication that he would have killed the Targaryens. He didn't have the spine to do it. Anyways, we digress, no Astaporis raped Lyanna or ordered Robert and Ned's head on a spike. Robert wouldn't order a massacre.

We will have to disagree. I think Robert was a pretty terrible person. He raped and abused his wife, and employeed child murderes. Your probably right in one sense about him not ordering it, he wouldn't care about the slaves in the first place.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Are we talking about today's world or ASoIaF? I hope it's the latter, and that we can keep the former out of this discussion from now on. I would very much appreciate it.

Firstly, it's not just slavers. There are slaves who were better off before Dany arrived (remember Xaro's dancers? Daenerys would have them dig holes. Do you think they would actually go for that?), there were poor freemen who were better off before she arrived (pretty much anyone in Astapor), and yes, slavers were definitely better when she was not around. But what makes the "rights" of slavers less important than those of others?

Secondly, it's not just that slavery provides for a few. It keeps the entire society standing and moving forward. Slavery allows cultures to move beyond slavery, and into ever improving conditions for the general populace, rich and poor both.

Yeh sure, maybe house slaves serving wine might like the old ways better than digging a hole.

The ones that were catching the sharp end of a whip daily aren't itching to sell themselves, the masses chanting Mother aren't in a hurry to return to slavery.

And just LoL@slavery being the backbone of any civilization. In that case murder and war is also a backbone so whatever you think Dany did it's only helping to make the world better for all, cuz ya know, war and murder makes societies flourish.

[MotherAnduin]

We will have to disagree. I think Robert was a pretty terrible person. He raped and abused his wife, and employeed child murderes. Your probably right in one sense about him not ordering it, he wouldn't care about the slaves in the first place.

Dany is pretty terrible as well. Much worse than Robert. She accomplished that while being so young too.