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Is Mace Tyrell really an oaf? Really?


Jon of the Dead

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Obviously I'm not one to disagree with Olenna, but what oafish things have Mace really done? I think he might be one of the most underrated players in his own right:



- The Battle of Ashford: By all accounts, Randyll Tarly in the van smashed Robert's forces before Mace could get there. But what if Mace was purposefully taking his own sweet time getting there, letting Tarly do all the heavy lifting? The battle was a moderate success for the Tyrells because they got Robert out of the Stormlands, and it was Mace who took credit for it, without even breaking a sweat (at least compared to Tarly). That was a very Roose Bolton move, I think.



- The Siege of Storm's End: While other lords were dying and fighting in the war, Mace was feasting. I repeat: the guy was chilling in his tent. He chose the best job. He just had to wait and relax. And no one could say he wasn't contributing to the war because he really was: if Storm's End had fallen, the Rebellion might had ended differently. Some people say Mace was just following orders, but even so, other lords, more foolish and hungry for glory might have left a part of their forces in SE and took another part to the Riverlands, where the fighting was thickest. But not Mace. He was smart enough to play it safe.



The result: At the end of the Rebellion, unlike many other loyalist houses, the Tyrells survived with their lands, incomes and titles intact, and no major losses amongst their family members (except Quentyn Tyrell, but anyone named "Quentyn" in asoiaf is better off dead)



- The Wot5K: Olenna said Mace was an idiot by supporting Renly. But he really was the best choice. No one could have seen the shadow baby coming. And even then, even after their chosen king was dead, Mace proved smart enough to choose the right alliance once more and look what he got: his daughter was bethroded to the king, his son got Brightwater Keep, his younger son became a Kingsguard, and Mace himself got a council seat.



- Second siege of Storm's End: Mace was smart enough to abandon the siege of Storm's End and bring the bigger part of his army to KL, where he might need them soon. By the end of aDwD, Mace is not only Hand, but is about to get even more power after Kevan's death.



In short: Mace really doesn't have a blunder to his name, or a particularly grave mistake. He also hasn't been surviving thanks to others' smarts (other than Olenna killing Joff), because he let Tarly do the heavy-lifting in Ashford, he remained in the siege of Storm's End, he chose first Renly and then Joff, etc.



Sure, the future of the Tyrells is uncertain right now, but I think they might be fine after all.



And something else: it's possible that Mace takes advantage of his image as an oaf, just like Olenna takes advantage of her feeble looks, Margaery pretends to be all pure and innocent but is really a schemer, Garlan doesn't boast about his fighting skills, etc


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I don't think Mace is an oaf at all. I don't think he's a genius, but I highly doubt he's as stupid as he seems. I think people just really like the Queen of Thorns and take her at her word.

Yeah, I think he is a moderately decent player, maybe not in terms of beating other houses and the like, but in terms of keeping his house safe and defending his house's interests.

Agree about Olenna. Personally, I take everything she says with a grain of salt. And it wouldn't surprise me if Olenna was bad-mouthing him on purpose :P

It's surely a safer world if people take you for an oaf.

Yeah, he just flies below the radar and gets more powerful. He's awesome

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There are things which can be said thousand times by thousand characters and people still take them for lies/gossip and make up theories about how it really is. Then there are things said only once in a light-hearted situation and people follow them like laws. Mace being an oaf is one of the latter.


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I agree, I think he is not a genius, but he is not that stupid either (as many characters and poster think), I think it's even good a good move to make people underrate you.



Anyway, I dislike it if people say like: Olenna is the one behind all intelligent Tyrell actions, Mace is just an idiot who became the most powerfull prson in Westeros thanks to qot, when Olennna dies there are no brains left in the Tyrell family etc.


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I think Mace is definitely underrated and is doing what he can to make his family very powerful. I like to think of him as subtle like Doran but that he's actually working on his plans. However I think Mace's plans will be screwed if Margaery is pronounced guilty; I think that'll completely dissolve the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. Besides, we know the Tyrells are social climbers and who wants to be associated with Cersei anymore? I could see Mace switching his allegiance to Aegon.


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He married his daughter to Joffrey.

Enough said.

are you subtly an discreetly calling The Ned an idiot :tantrum: :lol:

I give Mace and the Ned a pass. Ned didn't know Joff was the antichrist when he bethroded Sansa to him. As for Mace, my theory is that A. He never heard the rumors about Joff being a psycho or B. He knew about the PW plot all along

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are you subtly an discreetly calling The Ned an idiot :tantrum: :lol:

Ned bethrothed his daughter to Joffrey. He clearly planned on making sure that betrothal didn't become a marriage once he spent some time with Joffrey. Sansa, on the otherhand...

Mace Tyrell actually insisted the wedding go through, even after he read Stannis's letter and undoubtedly heard unsettling rumors. Which is why Olenna felt the need to kick over the cart and murder him in violation of guest rights.

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are you subtly an discreetly calling The Ned an idiot :tantrum: :lol:

The late lord Stark had the intention of ending the betrothal.

Mace has talented men and sons and lets them do the heavy lifting. He is not an idiot on the scale of Joffery, but he is not a particularly capable or remarkable man.

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I think Mace is definitely underrated and is doing what he can to make his family very powerful. I like to think of him as subtle like Doran but that he's actually working on his plans. However I think Mace's plans will be screwed if Margaery is pronounced guilty; I think that'll completely dissolve the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. Besides, we know the Tyrells are social climbers and who wants to be associated with Cersei anymore? I could see Mace switching his allegiance to Aegon.

Yes, I think Mace's biggest mistake could be putting so much faith on Randyll. There are theories about Randyll being one of the powerful friends of the Golden Company, and Mace put Margaery on his custody.

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from everything you explained, he seems like a slightly fortunate carrion crow.



Sitting back and waiting to see what happens, isn't really wits. It's feeding on chaos and fortune, like Littlefinger.



I mean, yes he has been able to keep himself safe, but making margaery the queen, also has put her in grave cirumstances "to crown is to kill". As he is now experiencing.



Those being raised up have further to fall.



I LIKE Mace being an oaf, rather than some sort of sinister, greed addict.


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