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Gender Bias And You


Winter's Knight

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The only character to whom I am attached whose fans seem to congregate within one gender(based on what I see) is the Great One. I'd say his fan base (we proud few) is almost exclusively male.



They're probably also for the most part napoleon complexed, short(ish), intelligent egomaniacs. Not me of course, just the rest of them.


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I like Melisandre because I am a boy and she is a woman.

Good answer.

WK, you are very lucky the OP (for the most part) was a bunch of lulzy nonsense, otherwise i would have to go Ramsay on you. :devil: :P

I missed this other thread people are talking about....hmmm.

My gender really has nothing to do with how i read to be honest. Other than occasionally finding a male character attractive here and there, i usually am viewing the story from a meta perspective. Basically watching how the author creates his world and conveys his messages. When i read about both male and female POVs, im not viewing them in a gendered lens because i dont view people in general with a gendered lens. (cuz thats dumb) So female POVs using sex to get what they want? Who cares? If i have a beef with any given character, it has nothing to do with their gender.

GRRM is actually addressing gender issues and its pretty easy to see that. (and pretty clever) But my own vag really doesnt dictate my viewpoint. Well...there is the one exception: I like Jon Snow because hes a boy and im a girl who likes boys. (So thats not really my gender speaking as much as my sexuality. ;))

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But my own vag really doesnt dictate my viewpoint.

Eloquently put, FS. I generally try and keep my peen out of my viewpoint.

Well...there is the one exception: I like Jon Snow because hes a boy and im a girl who likes boys. (So thats not really my gender speaking as much as my sexuality. ;))

Yeah good point.

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Umm,, OP is serious-from the point where she says "In all seriousness...", she is serious.

I think you misunderstood.

I wanted to find out-not why men/women read the books-but how your gender affects your reading? The experiences that come with being a man or a woman, how do they affect you?

For example, I knew a poster who once told me that Dany's Daario phase irritated her because it reminded her of her own teenaged decisions.

Another example would be that I liked Sansa in the beginning because she reminded me of my own princess phase.

My apologies then. I thought this was similar to the earlier "why do women" thread. If you're serious then by all means.

As I said, I know more male then female readers, and until coming to this forum hadn't noticed much difference in regards to gender.

After some thought, I guess the biggest difference I've noticed is that the male readers I know (myself included) tend to think in causation (A+B=C). For example Sansa lied to protect Joffrey, therefore causing the event of Lady's death (just a random example, please don't tear my head off). The female readers I know are much better at looking at the emotional reasons and justifications of characters.

Other then that I haven't noticed much gender bias from those I know. I know a woman that hates Dany and a man that loves her. I'd say its about an equal split on who does and doesn't like the magical aspects. And even now it seems that everyone I know is rooting for someone different to eventually sit the iron throne.

That said, I think we can all agree that it is easier for men to sympathize with male characters and vice versa.

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My apologies to the author of the thread OP, but I find its content full of prejudge in respect to both male and female mindset, hence offensive. Probably you didn't mean to, so don't mind it.. I just wanted to be honest.

There are books out there that clearly target some kind of cliqué man/woman standard by using certain colourful language terms, thematics and different focus on details. But IMHO these are more properly targeting a mindset, rather than a gender.

Still, I can't see why ASOIAF belongs to this group, and IMHO it is a very neutral bunch of books.

Can't it only be that statistically women read more than men? Just a question, I don't know it for a fact on a world wide level, though in my country it is certainly true.

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After some thought, I guess the biggest difference I've noticed is that the male readers I know (myself included) tend to think in causation (A+B=C). For example Sansa lied to protect Joffrey, therefore causing the event of Lady's death (just a random example, please don't tear my head off). The female readers I know are much better at looking at the emotional reasons and justifications of characters.

Ive seen the most vitriol toward Sansa from female posters. :dunno: So im not sure thats entirely accurate, mate. Sure, Sansa's fanbase is largely female, but the venom also comes from females. Weird.

I know a woman that hates Dany and a man that loves her.

Dany appeals to just about everybody, gender speaking. Shes a charismatic figure so shes going to generate buzz. The wider fandom (i consider us here on this forum the "inner fandom") tends to enjoy Dany equally. Male and female fans in droves. Cersei also has quite a few male fans. Jaime has his equal share of both male and female fans. Tyrion too. A lot of the hate Tyrion gets comes from the ladies though. Not that i blame them. lol Ive only really seen Tyrion rage come from the inner fandom. The wider fandom eats him up. (Especially my dad...lol)

My mum likes Dany, Jon, Marg, Arya, Davos, Tyrion, and Cat. Her favorite at the moment is Olenna.

My dad likes Tyrion, Jon, Robb, and....well i think he likes Jorah too. Its hard to tell with him. Dad has a silent but burning hatred for Stannis. Hes more vocal on his dislike for Jaime but not sure how deep it goes.

Everyone has their own tastes.

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@Florina Stark

I agree. As I said in an earlier post I find gender bias rather silly. Until coming to the forums I had no idea. But as I was told this was meant to be a serious discussion, I (rather unsuccessfully) tried to come up with some difference I've noticed between the male and female fans I personally know.

Really though, you summed it up with "everyone has their own tastes".

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My apologies to the author of the thread OP, but I find its content full of prejudge in respect to both male and female mindset, hence offensive. Probably you didn't mean to, so don't mind it.. I just wanted to be honest.

There are books out there that clearly target some kind of cliqué man/woman standard by using certain colourful language terms, thematics and different focus on details. But IMHO these are more properly targeting a mindset, rather than a gender.

Still, I can't see why ASOIAF belongs to this group, and IMHO it is a very neutral bunch of books.

Can't it only be that statistically women read more than men? Just a question, I don't know it for a fact on a world wide level, though in my country it is certainly true.

I agree. I thought it was joke until it was confirmed otherwise. A bit disappointing for the culture of this forum...

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I think the distribution of fans is a fairly equal one with the ratio just tilting in favour of women (no more than 60:40), and its possible GRRM just see's more female fans about, its not like he has met every single fan of his.


Plus also many draw attention to the increased number of female fans in aSoIaF because it belongs to a genre of fantasy that many traditionally associate guys with (i'm sure lots of women play skyrim or D and D, and have LotR as there favourite film, but thats the stereotype)


I think that the thing is that the books just appeal to both genders, although there might be all those description of clothes and beards and stuff, GRRM also is famous for having an obsession with how characters break their fast (usually with some kind of meat) so thats something that might appeal to men.


I personally know a number of fans of the series, both book and show, i have never met anyone who has outright said they dont like it. I know more fans who are guys than girls, but that might just be because most of my closer friends are guys.


In terms of what I enjoy about the series, its pretty much everything. The setting, the scale, the depth of the characters, the political intrigue and smartness of the plotlines, the frequent killing off of main characters (well i hate it when it happens but as a principle i like it) as well as how it is amazingly well written. And also there are a lot of amazing fight scenes & battles.

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Its utterly unfair to group the wider fandom in gender because the wider fandom has equal amounts of both genders (and those in between) The HBO show appeals to everybody and this is the thing thats getting everyone into the books in the first place. LOTR is pretty similar in this respect despite having few female characters in it. LOTR has just about as many female fans as it does male. ASOIAF happens to have stuff in it that draws a lot of different people including those who arent into fantasy to begin with.



A series like Twilight is aiming for a female demographic but has some male fans in it. Hunger Games aims for young adult readers in general so theres almost an equal balance of fans. (The main character, Katniss, being female probably does draw in more female fans though.) Harry Potter is another "for everybody" series.



I find it interesting when a generally male dominated franchise ends up appealing to females though. The Ur Example that has been brought to my attention lately is Marvel's Thor. Superhero stories usually appeal more to males generally speaking. (its the damn truth) But the Thor comics had enough drama and character development to appeal to female audiences. This wasnt very noticeable until Marvel brought the franchise to film. The first Thor film had plenty of superhero tropes that are common, but included the dramatic elements from the comics. The casting and portrayals of the two main characters (Thor and Loki) ended up being a massive hit with female audiences. The second Thor film puts it Up To Eleven in every way possible. And, i mean, in. Every. Possible. Way. After the Avengers film, Marvel realized a demographic seeping in that they may not have expected, but was very glad to see. The Estrogen Brigade. Hai how ya doin! Its kind of fun over here, isnt it? So Thor: The Dark World was strongly marketed to this new demographic. The results were pretty glorious. Keeping the male demographic but also welcoming the new female demographic with open arms. Now Thor's and Marvel's fanbases are reaching a balance. Its nice.


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Me, a man, and why I love these books.

Politics

War

Death

magic

Dragons

Sex (weird that all characters are young but remember its a different time different social norms)

Knights (very male-ish)

Revenge

Castles

I mean in all honesty these books are very unisex but if you think time period type of characters and the characters who have girl issues I'd say it leans more to a male audience.

Now on a personal note I've never met a girl who enjoys talking politics. Nor girls that like " the dark ages" or the idea girls during that time Wed so young. Most would be turned off by just the idea. But because grrm wrote the books so well adding in powerful female characters women seem to look past the huge sexism and the idea that young girls like dany at 13 was sold off to a 30 year old man for an army.

This whole idea of it being a feminine book series reminds me of the whole "grease" situation. It ended up being the most popular and loved movie by females. When in truth it was a story written by 2 men showing male empowerment and being completely anti-feminist. (I'd you don't believe me look it up).

As I said before these books are very unisex. Powerful females with real issues males with honor and lack of. Heros with insecurities.

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I'm surrounded by very literate and well-read family and friends, and it is indeed a rare person I know who can get through Game of Thrones (book 1) without effort... much less all five novels so far. "So many characters! And everyone has like 5 other names! Book 1 was a chore! I'll stick to the series!" <~~this even from those with encyclopedic knowledge of the Silmarillion who are used to complexities in fantasy novels.



I see no gender bias. I only see bias-by-patience. The same people I know who are frustrated with ASOIAF are the same people who would argue that Heinlein is a misogynist, and who would argue it well and with merit and with canon.



It is the tangledness and unfinishedness of ASOIAF that divides its admirers from its dectractors, not its imagined gender-bias.

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Its utterly unfair to group the wider fandom in gender because the wider fandom has equal amounts of both genders (and those in between) The HBO show appeals to everybody and this is the thing thats getting everyone into the books in the first place. LOTR is pretty similar in this respect despite having few female characters in it. LOTR has just about as many female fans as it does male. ASOIAF happens to have stuff in it that draws a lot of different people including those who arent into fantasy to begin with.

A series like Twilight is aiming for a female demographic but has some male fans in it. Hunger Games aims for young adult readers in general so theres almost an equal balance of fans. (The main character, Katniss, being female probably does draw in more female fans though.) Harry Potter is another "for everybody" series.

I find it interesting when a generally male dominated franchise ends up appealing to females though. The Ur Example that has been brought to my attention lately is Marvel's Thor. Superhero stories usually appeal more to males generally speaking. (its the damn truth) But the Thor comics had enough drama and character development to appeal to female audiences. This wasnt very noticeable until Marvel brought the franchise to film. The first Thor film had plenty of superhero tropes that are common, but included the dramatic elements from the comics. The casting and portrayals of the two main characters (Thor and Loki) ended up being a massive hit with female audiences. The second Thor film puts it Up To Eleven in every way possible. And, i mean, in. Every. Possible. Way. After the Avengers film, Marvel realized a demographic seeping in that they may not have expected, but was very glad to see. The Estrogen Brigade. Hai how ya doin! Its kind of fun over here, isnt it? So Thor: The Dark World was strongly marketed to this new demographic. The results were pretty glorious. Keeping the male demographic but also welcoming the new female demographic with open arms. Now Thor's and Marvel's fanbases are reaching a balance. Its nice.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Very nice.

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My apologies then. I thought this was similar to the earlier "why do women" thread. If you're serious then by all means.

As I said, I know more male then female readers, and until coming to this forum hadn't noticed much difference in regards to gender.

After some thought, I guess the biggest difference I've noticed is that the male readers I know (myself included) tend to think in causation (A+B=C). For example Sansa lied to protect Joffrey, therefore causing the event of Lady's death (just a random example, please don't tear my head off). The female readers I know are much better at looking at the emotional reasons and justifications of characters.

2 things:

1. yes, a lot of the OP is a joke, intended to lead you to an important and uncomfortable question, in a comfortable and cushy manner: WHY are people surprised at women reading and enjoying the books? Additionally, is there such a thing as a feminine perspective? Women do not belong to a hive mind, and in spite of gendered behavior, are capable of distinct, individual opinions on both male and female book characters.

and

2. I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that people who argue that Sansa is NOT to blame for Lady's death do so due to some kind of emotional reason (If I'm reading you correctly) and not based on "causation".

I hope you realize your argument suggests women do not look at causation (logic presumably). It really is a punch to the gut disguised as an 'observation'. Furthermore, does the 'emotional' analysis and motivation of a character presuppose you are not using logic, or causation as you call it?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, because what you wrote, could very easily be interpreted as an insult

That said, I think we can all agree that it is easier for men to sympathize with male characters and vice versa.

actually no. It's perfectly normal and expected even, for women to identify with male charcters, it's vice versa that's the problem. If a guy identifies with Sansa (E-Ro where are you? ) do we mock him, or does he just maybe possibly have a point ?

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