Jon Snow's Fate - Ghost / Ice Cell

[Minstral]

One point that I find interesting is what Jojen tells Bran. That part of him is Summer and part of Summer is him.

[The Sleeper]

I think somebody will have to die. After all, only death pays for life.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

I think somebody will have to die. After all, only death pays for life.

I think it depends on how he's brought back. Beric died for Cat, but Thoros didn't have to die for Beric (none of the times). What's the difference between the two? It seems most plausible to me that the relevant difference is that while Thoros was normally alive, Beric wasn't but only kept alive by the spark Thoros had breathed into him, so when he passed on his spark to Cat, he didn't have any left for himself.

Then of course there's the stuff with Drogo, which is again different from both of these cases (in particular Drogo wasn't dead yet and the end result was quite different from those two and also from what we expect for Jon) and the case of wights and Coldhands (for whose resurrection presumably noone has to die - or might that perhaps be what the Others want Craster's children for?).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I think it depends on how he's brought back. Beric died for Cat, but Thoros didn't have to die for Beric (none of the times). What's the difference between the two? It seems most plausible to me that the relevant difference is that while Thoros was normally alive, Beric wasn't but only kept alive by the spark Thoros had breathed into him, so when he passed on his spark to Cat, he didn't have any left for himself.

I don't think Beric was ever truly "brought back to life", since no death was used in payment. He doesn't eat. He's slowly losing all his memories of his real life. He's not alive, just undead. He's UnBeric, basically a high quality wight, and (with some transmission loss) that's what he passed to UnCat.

In order to truly bring Jon back to life (assuming his body is really dead), a death will need to pay for the new life.

Here's a post I suspect few have seen (from chrisdaw)

Story of Lyubim Tsarevich and the Winged Wolf

and here's an external link to the story

Story of Lyubim Tsarevich and the Winged Wolf

It's a Russian folktale. The Winged Wolf is a magical creature that helps a prince win a princess and gain a kingdom. The WW also brings the prince back from the dead after he is treacherously slain by his brothers. (All credit goes to chrisdaw for finding this.)

There's a chance this could have an impact on the last part of the OP's scenario.

ETA

[First of My Name]

I completely agree. Another excellent thread, yolkboy. I'm even surer than I was before that Jon will warg into Ghost.

[Mithras]

“I fear no ghosts. Dragons are more powerful than ghosts.”

This is a foreshadowing that Jon will not lose his consciousness in Ghost. Probably Bran will communicate with him as well.

[Han Snow]

Continue, please!!!

So neatly put together and backed up by the text itself!!!

[Viserys_The Transformed]

What if they burn his body ??

[Lady Arya's Song]

Excellent Yolkboy.

I am looking forward to part two.

Due to many clues regarding Jon's fate throughout the books I had come to the same conclusion regarding his fate after stabbing.

The next part is my own subjective rant and grief.

Jon Snow is my favorite character along with all the Stark children. I loved his character due to his love and concern for his younger siblings and how Martin has written him as a character who wants to do the right thing for the most people. In a series where Martin has written many grey characters and even perhaps black characters Jon's character at least to me was refreshing. I know many readers considered him boring but I loved a character who was willing to give a fish to a younger brother who did not catch one for himself. I have loved his character growing and maturing and learning from mentors Martin placed in his story line.

I subjectively wanted Martin to keep Jon Snow the whiter shade of grey in the series but alas I am now concerned he will end up a much darker character..and I surely hope he is not the Night's King unless we the readers have been given some false information regarding him. I also have concerns regarding kinslaying..which under orders Jon did when he killed Quorin Halfhand. I do think a brother in the Night's watch is a brother in the god's eyes. What that says about an organization that has stabbed two LC's is something to ponder but I fear Jon might also have to pay a price himself.

It seems to me that today's readers do not like hero characters in their stories however I am a woman who is old enough no doubt be a grandma to most writers and readers on this forum

I still like stories that have good guys..no doubt due to my indoctrination of the Lone Ranger series or Roy Rodgers, Walt Disney and the like. I have some small hope that Martin being my age also..still has a kernel of Mighty Mouse hero cartoon fantasy in his brain,or perhaps an episode of Timmy and Lassie.

While Jon might need to make some harsh decisions when he returns to his body..I am still hoping for a good guy..the good guy of Martin's and my past. At this time in today's climate it almost seems taboo to even write such a thing. So there I have written my deepest desire for the character Jon Snow. If his character is to die in the end..I just hope its on an epic scale of every hero in all the fairy tales, old wives tales, religious affiliations, etc etc.

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Yolkboy, I commend you on your research and your willingness to compile and post great threads and also your dignity and for taking the time to send me very nice comments privately. Your Momma brought you up with manners. I appreciate them. Sorry this was off topic. Looking forward to your next part and I promise to go back into silent mode for another few months. LOL thank you for your patience.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

*snip

Just wanted to say hear, hear!

Too many of our fellow readers find fault in the hero's journey, and in GRRM if it suggested that he is writing one. What so few realize is exactly what you pointed out about his background, and something that we discussed in the opening of the current iteration of RLJ. Literary themes are as old as humanity, and there really are no new stories, only new ways of making them felt. Just because GRRM has the reputation for subverting tropes does not mean he will write outside of his. He puts new spins on "old" ideas, but at the end of the day I believe his story will have a hero and that Jon Snow will be that hero. There has been too much foreshadowing of that to ignore (especially in his character development, as you noted) The world needs heroes, and I highly doubt that is lost on GRRM. So thank you for writing this and please don't go back into silent mode-- we need more posters like you!

Also, I agree that yolkboy is very nice and I too am looking forward to the next installment :)

[Allison of Tarth]

This was a pleasure to read, and very convincing. Nice work yolkboy, I'm looking forward to the coming installments!

[Mord-Sith]

Really looking forward to the next installments, you have really good theories!

[Senzafaccia]

It's a Russian folktale. The Winged Wolf is a magical creature that helps a prince win a princess and gain a kingdom. The WW also brings the prince back from the dead after he is treacherously slain by his brothers. (All credit goes to chrisdaw for finding this.)

There's a chance this could have an impact on the last part of the OP's scenario.

ETA

"You will fly, Bran"... ;)

[ViserionsFire]

I still like stories that have good guys..no doubt due to my indoctrination of the Lone Ranger series or Roy Rodgers, Walt Disney and the like. I have some small hope that Martin being my age also..still has a kernel of Mighty Mouse hero cartoon fantasy in his brain,or perhaps an episode of Timmy and Lassie.

While Jon might need to make some harsh decisions when he returns to his body..I am still hoping for a good guy..the good guy of Martin's and my past. At this time in today's climate it almost seems taboo to even write such a thing. So there I have written my deepest desire for the character Jon Snow. If his character is to die in the end..I just hope its on an epic scale of every hero in all the fairy tales, old wives tales, religious affiliations, etc etc.

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

As a product of growing up during the Lone Ranger period, don't forget about Sky King who also helped the weak at the expense of using his King Beach plane to do it. Cheyenne Bodie seemed to always help the weak frontiersman, but when Custer was on his Indian extermination campaign, Bodie was sitting amongst the tribes at the War Council. Kind of like Jon dealing with the Wildlings. There was also Spin and Marty. A series that was based on how a privileged rich kid (Marty) when thrown into a working ranch environment, has to adapt and develop relationships with kids that look at him as having inferior capability. Kind of like Jon or Sam as newcomers at the Wall.

I too, want to see Jon going forward on the "Hero's Journey". So far, all the Stark children, Tyrion and Dany have had their own Hero's Journey of adapting to challenging environments and evolving. Some may have seemingly stagnated a bit, but only to redirect them along their path. But to me, of all of the characters in this epic, Jon's is the closest to my projected ideal. Never knowing his true identity, growing up in a Lord's house where the Lord's Lady would rather you were dead and earning not only acceptance but genuine affection from your siblings. Going to a god forsaken harsh environment where the outcasts of the realm go to evade penalty for their crimes and see the true men that they are, and gaining their trust to be elected their Commander. Using his insight with a man who considers himself to be King and providing him with lodging along with his Queen and army, but still maintaining neutrality. Accepting the plight of the Wildlings in the broad context and providing a way for them to enter south of the Wall for protection and to assist against their common foe. To me, Jon tries to be true to the ideals that he was brought up with and wrestles with situations that challenge those ideals, and to come to a decision that both appeases the challenge and hold true to his character.

As a guy who was once stabbed in the back with a hunting knife, I come from my own personal perspective relating to Jon's situation. For me, this is when all you are is relied upon to find an awakening of purpose.

[Bonifer Tasty]

As a guy who was once stabbed in the back with a hunting knife, I come from my own personal perspective relating to Jon's situation. For me, this is when all you are is relied upon to find an awakening of purpose.

OMG! How terrible! I am so frightened of being stabbed...I'm so sorry you experienced that, and so thankful that you are still with us!

[Lyse Stark]

As a guy who was once stabbed in the back with a hunting knife, I come from my own personal perspective relating to Jon's situation. For me, this is when all you are is relied upon to find an awakening of purpose.

How did you get stabbed? That must be very frightening for you and your family! :hugs:

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

amazing post...

The seventy nine sentinels story could also be foreshadowing of Jon´s body being put in the ice cells.. like the sentinels, jon has been breaking his oath/NW´s neutrlity during ADWD..

[ViserionsFire]

How did you get stabbed? That must be very frightening for you and your family! :hugs:

Thanks Lyse, but that happened many years ago when I lived a much different and dangerous life, to myself and others. Yeah, family and friends were frightened. For me, I spent 1/3 a day hanging on to each breath, then I found myself in an intensive care unit. After that, I spent a week recovering from the surgery before infection set in. Then it was another 2 weeks dealing with that. It really never entered my mind to be frightened as I never understood (no one told me) the condition I was in. So, I just took in the moments and experienced some incredible magic.

[yolkboy]

Thanks for the kind words y'all. For those asking about part 2 - it will be next Saturday. I'm experimenting with how to present a long thread and adding a part a week seems like a good way.

amazing post...

The seventy nine sentinels story could also be foreshadowing of Jon´s body being put in the ice cells.. like the sentinels, jon has been breaking his oath/NW´s neutrlity during ADWD..

Yeah I looked at the sentinels, being encased in the Wall, I was interested. But I couldn't really connect them with Jon. Like you point out they had broken their vows. I actually never thought of that angle. I had wondered if the number 79 had any relevance but couldnt think of anything.

Thanks Lyse, but that happened many years ago when I lived a much different and dangerous life, to myself and others. Yeah, family and friends were frightened. For me, I spent 1/3 a day hanging on to each breath, then I found myself in an intensive care unit. After that, I spent a week recovering from the surgery before infection set in. Then it was another 2 weeks dealing with that. It really never entered my mind to be frightened as I never understood (no one told me) the condition I was in. So, I just took in the moments and experienced some incredible magic.

Wow VF, sorry to hear this. This is terrible. I'm glad you seem to have a decent perspective on the ordeal.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Yeah I looked at the sentinels, being encased in the Wall, I was interested. But I couldn't really connect them with Jon. Like you point out they had broken their vows. I actually never thought of that angle. I had wondered if the number 79 had any relevance but couldnt think of anything.

about Arson, it could also be pointed out that : (from the wiki) "The legend says that by listening the ear against the Wall, one can still ear the sound of Arson's axe who digs the ice."

he is still alive (like jon) digging the ice..